Topic: Minimum Required strength For weapons.

[Warl]

So I wish to apply a Minimum strength rule, In my game, For weapons. Yet I realize that in RM, a Characters strength score is More a representation of How developed He is for his Body type, Not necessarily a Comparable stat between to character with the same strength score but Greatly varying body frames/Size/Weights.

So I am looking for Ideas on How to Implement this. I suppose I could Work a Chart Based on Unencumbered Carry capacities? This is one thought I have had to give a "Stat" to just how Strong one character is compared to another, as in y game Encumbrance Takes Height, Weight and Frame into account.

Anyone have any other suggestions?

[jdale]

So I wish to apply a Minimum strength rule, In my game, For weapons. Yet I realize that in RM, a Characters strength score is More a representation of How developed He is for his Body type, Not necessarily a Comparable stat between to character with the same strength score but Greatly varying body frames/Size/Weights.

That's only sort of true. Two characters with a 90 stat, one weighing 200 lbs and the other weighing 100 lbs, will have the same bonus to their combat skills, but the larger character will have twice the encumbrance. The combat system doesn't take into account the difference in their mass (except across size boundaries like Large and Super-Large). So one way to look at it is that the strength stat represents how well they can make use of their mass. The actual weight of a sword is not that great, both can swing it.

But that being the case, you might want to take mass or encumbrance into account here, as that will give some advantage to the larger character -- if they choose a weapon that is suitable for their body type.

[markc]

  There is an article on TheGuildCompanion.com called the Weapons of Novi that has listed the stat bonus he thinks is required, and I have always used that. The article is for or from an RM2 game but can be used with any version of RM with some mods.
MDC

[Warl]

So I wish to apply a Minimum strength rule, In my game, For weapons. Yet I realize that in RM, a Characters strength score is More a representation of How developed He is for his Body type, Not necessarily a Comparable stat between to character with the same strength score but Greatly varying body frames/Size/Weights.

That's only sort of true. Two characters with a 90 stat, one weighing 200 lbs and the other weighing 100 lbs, will have the same bonus to their combat skills, but the larger character will have twice the encumbrance. The combat system doesn't take into account the difference in their mass (except across size boundaries like Large and Super-Large). So one way to look at it is that the strength stat represents how well they can make use of their mass. The actual weight of a sword is not that great, both can swing it.

But that being the case, you might want to take mass or encumbrance into account here, as that will give some advantage to the larger character -- if they choose a weapon that is suitable for their body type.

The problem I have with this is 2 fold.
1 Being reality. In your example WHY would 2 guys Having the same Str Bonus but greatly differing Masses be able to put the same Force into the blow. They wouldn't, the Guy with the 200 Mass is going to be able to put more force into the blow at a 90 strength.

2 Size vs Leverage. A Halfing ... 3-4 feet tall, does not have the same leverage and center of Balance, let alone the weight, to put the same "force" behind the blow as the 200lb guy, regardless of whether they have the same 90 str score.

The Idea I have been batting around involves using either Encumbrance as a Stat. Scaling it along the lines of a Standard stat to receive a Bonus or a penalty. Then assigning Values to all Weapons that represent the Bonus needed to Wield that weapon without Penalty. If you meet or exceed that value on the weapon, No penalty, if you are below that value, then you take a Penalty, equivalent to the difference between your Bonus and that required for the weapon, to the weapons OB

[Ynglaur]

In RM, Strength represents one's ability to apply strength, and not raw muscular power.  Thus, all other things being equal, a 200lb person ought to have a higher ST stat than a 100lb. person.

When it comes to carrying things, mass is taken into account with the encumbrance rules.
When it comes to feats of strength (e.g. lifting, throwing, etc.) , and GMs should adjust Maneuver Difficulties taking character size and mass into account.
When it comes to combat, the Large/Super-large rules handle this in RMC/RM2/RMSS.  I like the new rules in RMU far better, though.

[jdale]

RMU does give more gradation for size and handles these things better. It's still stepwise, so the difference between 100 lbs and 200 lbs generally is not represented, but that's a simplification for playability.

I don't like using character weight to calculate stats. Balance is built into the assignment of stats, it's not built into assignment of weight. If you want to make them interrelated, use stats to calculate character weight. A character with a 90 stat should have a powerful build. Don't turn it around and say a character who is bigger (possibly simply because the player decided they wanted it that way) gets an extra bonus.

All that said, my conclusion was that if you use encumbrance in determining the weapon a character is capable of wielding, it's a very simple solution that does give a combat advantage to a larger character over a smaller one. If you say the 100 lbs character cannot handle a broadsword effectively and needs to use a shortsword instead, you don't have to worry about the fact that they both have the same strength stat, as they will be using different tables.

[Spectre771]

Having read through the posts, there are too many different posts to quote, so I will try to get them all in this post.

Weight of person:  Just because someone is 200 pounds does NOT mean they can hit harder, do more more damage, etc.  I've seen 200, 300, 400 pound people who can't move let alone swing a sword, yet Bruce Lee weighed far LESS then 200 pounds and had amazing feats of strength.  (Joe Weider, body builder, had to custom design equipment for Bruce Lee because he destroyed it too frequently)

Size:  I have seen Aikido masters, Judo Masters who weigh less than I do throw people all over the mats.  I have seen 90+ year old Karate masters toss people across the room using only their fingers.  (I have been thrown by them too)

Training overcomes, or compensates for,  the muscular strength, mass of person, height of person.

We have had this discussion of a weak person being able to "lift the 2-handed sword" in our sessions.  When it comes down to the final number, the low Strength bonus gets calculated into the stats.  It will take more ranks of training to compensate for the low strength bonus.  Some people just have to train harder to be as good as someone else.

It does sound like a good idea to have a strength minimum in order to be able to wield a weapon, but preventing a person from ever being able to use a weapon because they are "too weak" doesn't sound very fair.  It took my sister a long time to be able to use a 6' bo staff effectively, but she did it.  She's shorter, weighs less, and is "weaker" than I am, but I don't want to be on the business end of her bo staff and now she is far better with one than I am.  Why?  She trained with it more, overcame and compensated for the "weaknesses" and is now far better than I am.  In fact, she has been working with a halberd now which has an 8 pound blade on the end and to me, feels absolutely impossible to wield, but she does it.

The best answer to your question that I can think of thus far is to set a chart that will compare weight of weapon vs. Strength stat or vs. Strength bonus.

10-15 pound weapon  : +25 Str Bonus  or STR = 90 - 100 
7-9 pound weapon     : +20 Str Bonus   or STR = 80 - 89
so on...

I weigh 145, 6'2".  I can break 5 boards with a punch, hammer strike, or ridge hand.  I can list every person in my station who weighs over 200 pounds who can't break one single board with a punch.  However, those same people can bench press twice what I can...... but, I can do more pull ups and push ups than they can.  Weight doesn't mean stronger.  I am not what anyone would consider to be a "strong" person.

[Khorah]

One reason that we had avoided using such a combo is that once again, the small races get hosed. Most of the already have a negative mod to their STR (iirc) and they can't wear most of the magic armor in the world. By also limiting what they can use in terms of weapons and such, don't be surprised if you have a group full of humans and elves (unless that is what you are shooting for..)

[yammahoper]

One reason that we had avoided using such a combo is that once again, the small races get hosed. Most of the already have a negative mod to their STR (iirc) and they can't wear most of the magic armor in the world. By also limiting what they can use in terms of weapons and such, don't be surprised if you have a group full of humans and elves (unless that is what you are shooting for..)

I'd rather eliminate those small races from the game.     2sp a hobbit head bounty. 

[markc]

 Yes smaller races can receive a penalty for not having a high enough ST score but then again most smaller races are not what people would think of as stand up warrior races.  Most would be ambush type group fighters or users of magic to help others in combat.


 I understand that people like the idea put forth by the various Lord of the Ring tales, movies and other works of fiction that show 1/2 lings, 1/4 lings and even ling ling's being good at combat. (ok the ling ling was a joke)
 At there are specific times when being small(er) can be a great advantage but in general being smaller can be a huge disadvantage also.


 I can see a place for small races in many setting but for them to survive on the wild frontier they need, IMHO some offensive and defensive advantage to do so.
MDC

[tulgurth]

Being denied the use of a weapon should be determined by what your str bonus is, instead it should be determined by the size of the being, in stature, not weight.  So said halfling wielding a 2H sword is rather ludicrous, no matter the halfling's str bonus. 

[Warl]

Smaller races also get an offset as they generally have a Bonus to Defense/Quickness...

SO anyone complaining that they can't wield a Proper two-handed sword cause they Chose to be a Halfling is generally considered a Munchkin in my book.

[Ecthelion]

So I wish to apply a Minimum strength rule, In my game, For weapons. Yet I realize that in RM, a Characters strength score is More a representation of How developed He is for his Body type, Not necessarily a Comparable stat between to character with the same strength score but Greatly varying body frames/Size/Weights.

The latter is IMHO not true. It's not strength in relation to body type but rather strength in relation to race (which in turn of course has a typical mass and body type). So a Human with a St 25 belongs to the weaker among his race, but he still might be strong if compared to the average Halfling. And that's where the racial stat bonus comes in.

So I am looking for Ideas on How to Implement this. ...
Anyone have any other suggestions?

I would suggest to simply use the total strength bonus, including the racial modifier. So e.g. a Broadsword might require a St bonus of +5 (or+2 for RMSS) to be used without penalty and therefore not typically be the weapon of choice for a halfling, whereas a Short Sword might require at least St bonus -15 and therefore often be used by Halfling fighters.

[Nortti]

I would keep it simple. Determine the size of the user small/medium/large. These could be your hobbit/human/troll. Determine the size of the weapon in same way.

Use total bonus (race+stat). Increase the requirement by 10 if a small character tries to use medium-size weapon like broadsword. If small character wants to use a medium weapon two-handed take the weapon down one category. In RM fashion you can let the character use the weapon but with a penalty. The missing amount of strength as a penalty would work.

Uber simple way would be to require ST bonus of -10 for small, +5 for medium and +15 for large weapons. Unless you want to write a list with requirements for each weapon. (Which you might want if you like to have more detail.)

Extra strong and large characters could have purposely built weapons that have high strength requirement (like +25 to +35) and cause more hits. I would use max +50% hits due to heavier weapon design.   

[arakish]

Yet another one I am late...

I agree with a minimum strength for weapons.  However, I tend use a minimum modifier/bonus for weapon use.

I tend to kata with a Hand-Half samarai sword.  I have also tried to kata with a claymore.  The two are quite different in that the claymore weighs about twice as much as my sword.  Although I have the strength to wield the claymore, I do not have enough to wield it for as long as I can the samarai sword.  Thus, it is not my "strength" but my bonus for strength.  I may have a +10, maybe a +15 for strength.  But for the claymore, I would have to say that I need a +25 or higher strength bonus.

rmfr

[Spectre771]

Yet another one I am late...

I agree with a minimum strength for weapons.  However, I tend use a minimum modifier/bonus for weapon use.

I tend to kata with a Hand-Half samarai sword.  I have also tried to kata with a claymore.  The two are quite different in that the claymore weighs about twice as much as my sword.  Although I have the strength to wield the claymore, I do not have enough to wield it for as long as I can the samarai sword.  Thus, it is not my "strength" but my bonus for strength.  I may have a +10, maybe a +15 for strength.  But for the claymore, I would have to say that I need a +25 or higher strength bonus.

rmfr

I agree completely, the Total STR bonus is a better method to use (IMHO).  There are examples of extra strong beings in each race.  That bonus represents the varying strengths of individuals within a race.  While one member of a race may be able to wield the heavier weapon, another of the same race may not be able to normally.  Add in a Ring of Strength or a spell that boosts strength for a period of time and that being would be then able to wield the weapon.  By using only the STR stat, the "actual" strength of the PC is ignored.  A PC has a STR of 80, but after bonuses from items/spells/misc the total STR bonus is +35.  +35 is a very strong being regardless of race or stat.  That being should be allowed to wield the heaviest of weapons when all is said and done.  This does not take into consideration the length of weapon vs. height of PC.  I'm still hard pressed to envision a gnome with a 6' Claymore or a Lance.



Weapon kata with a Battle Axe of Shield Slaying is awesome.  With that, you don't have to wield it for long.    Not many foes see a 4th strike from it.

[intothatdarkness]

I've always used the bonus rather than the stat to determine those things (along with extra concussion damage based on Str).

[Warl]

Since there has been so much additinal discussion going on in this thread recently.... And since I oiriginally started it....
I am posting the resolution I came up with.
I chose to base it off of Base Weight allowance... that is the amount of Weight a Character is able to carry and be Unencumbered.
Now I do use My own home rule version of calculation Base weight allowance... but it could still apply in the basic game.

Strength Value
Strength value is different than just your Strength Stat of Bonus. You Strength stat represents How well you have developed your strength for your Body type, height and weight. Even though a Character who is Slender and weighs 120lbs may have a 90 strength does not mean he is as strong as a Character that is Stout and weighs 200lbs.
So Strength Value represents just how Strong you are compared to other characters. This is important in knowing what weapons your character might use most effectively. If a Weapon has a Minimum strength Requirement that is higher than your Strength Value, then you suffer a Penalty equal to the difference between the minimum strength requirement and your strength penalty in using that weapon. To Find your Strength Value. Find your BWA in the Chart below. 

[th]Str Category  [/th][th]BWA [/th][th]Str Value [/th][th]Weapon wght [/th]
Frail	0.1-2#	-30

[th] 0.1-0.5# [/th]
Feeble 3-5#  -25 [th] 0.6-0.9# [/th]
Delicate  6-9#  -20 [th] 1-1.9# [/th]
Very Weak 10-14#  -15 [th] 2-2.9# [/th]
Weak 15-20#  -10 [th] 3-4# [/th]
Able 21-27#  -5 [th] 4.1-5.5# [/th]
Average 28-35#  +0 [th] 5.6-7# [/th]
Capable 36-44#  +5 [th] 7.1-8.9# [/th]
Hardy 45-54#  +10 [th] 9-10.9# [/th]
Stout 55-65#  +15 [th] 11-13# [/th]
Stalwart 66-85#  +20 [th] 13.1-17# [/th]
Formidable 86-110#  +25 [th] 17.1-22# [/th]
Powerful 111+#  +30 [th] 22.1+ [/th]

[Warl]

I guess the forum doesn't like table html formating.. so Is tripped it out.

The Strength value I asigned to each weapon in my game... the purpose of this is that there are a few weapons that due to being "Top" Heavy or specially weighted may require more or less strength to wield.

Str Category / BWA / Str Value / Weapon wght
Frail / 0.1-2# /  -30 / 0.1-0.5#
Feeble  / 3-5# /  -25 /  0.6-0.9#
Delicate / 6-9# /  -20 / 1-1.9#
Very Weak / 10-14# /  -15 / 2-2.9#
Weak / 15-20# / -10 / 3-4#
Able / 21-27# /  -5 /  4.1-5.5#
Average / 28-35# /  +0 /  5.6-7#
Capable / 36-44# / +5 /  7.1-8.9#
Hardy / 45-54# /  +10 / 9-10.9#
Stout / 55-65# /  +15 /  11-13#
Stalwart / 66-85# /  +20 /  13.1-17#
Formidable / 86-110# /  +25 /  17.1-22#
Powerful / 111+# / +30 /  22.1+

[arakish]

I guess the forum doesn't like table html formating.. so Is tripped it out.

Try using [ td ] and [ / td ] (without the spaces) instead of [ th ] and [ / th ].

Here is a sample table, just hit the "quote" button and look at the underlying BBcodes.  Very similar to HTML, but uses the brackets instead of the greater than and less than signs.  Of course, it would be nice to apply some attributes such as align="center" or other such.  But I have found those don't work.

To make bold headers, you have to use the Bold tags inside the "td" tags.

Tier		Cost		Effect
I		+/- 10		+/- 5 to NSMax for one stat
II		+/- 20		+/- 10 to NSMax for one stat
III		+/- 30		+/- 15 to NSMax for one stat
IV		+/- 40		+/- 20 to NSMax for one stat
V		+/- 50		+/- 25 to NSMax for one stat
etc.		+/- 10 per step		+/- 5 to NSMax for one stat per step

rmfr