Topic: Are we missing something combat-wise?

[Old Man]

Hi all,

Have been running HARP (by email) for several months now and combats seem to be a long draw-out slugfest where you finally knock out the opponent by weight of critical damage ... Having run many years of Rolemaster, it seems (amazingly) slow in comparison. The Rolemaster crit tables generate lots of kills and the weapon tables generate lots of bulk damage. HARP seems to have neither.

We've only had one "death in X" critical on PC (from a Power Strike) but the PCs (most of whose attacks top off at medium - swords/maces/bows) have generated none  (well maybe one from an over-loaded bolt). So aside from big weapons, Power Strikes, Sniping, Ambush and over-loading spells, have we missed ways of exceeding the Medium (100) max?

Inquiring minds ...

[WoeRie]

Exactly what we experienced during our first sessions and that was the reason we switched to Hack & Slash, which was absolute perfect!

[Old Man]

Exactly what we experienced during our first sessions and that was the reason we switched to Hack & Slash, which was absolute perfect!

Hack & Slash?

[Ecthelion]

Hack & Slash?

H&S is/was an alternative combat system for HARP which AFAIK is no longer available. We had similar issues with the HARP combat system but also did not like H&S. Therefore I created a RM-like combat system for HARP which was published on TGC here. Perhaps it is of some use for you.

[Old Man]

Hack & Slash?

H&S is/was an alternative combat system for HARP which AFAIK is no longer available. We had similar issues with the HARP combat system but also did not like H&S. Therefore I created a RM-like combat system for HARP which was published on TGC here. Perhaps it is of some use for you.

If we end up starting a campaign or doing another adventure, I will give that a look. (Or we'll graft RM 2nd or MERP onto HARP )

[RandalThor]

My recent experience with HARP (with players totally new to the game) both differs and is in-line with the OP:

The first session, the PCs caught a bunch of goblins sleeping - literally. So, the "combat" wasn't long, drawn-out affairs. Dead goblins everywhere.

The next session saw them dealing with a ghoul, and the ghoul was totally aware of their presence. For the first few rounds, the fighter was forced to fight the creature single-handedly, because a doorway blocked the others from helping out. (I even ruled that the mage had to make a 'to hit' roll to touch the warrior in order to cast Haste on him, not an extremely difficult roll - but the fighter was swinging a broadsword around, one should be careful in such situations - though the mage managed to fail it anyway.)

The fighter, being a smart guy, used most of his OB to defend with (making the ghoul need a roll in the 80s in order to hit at all), so his attacks were appropriately limited in success. For a while it almost seemed like we were playing D&D, a few hits here, a couple there. But, then the ghoul got a lucky roll (96+67 = YIKES!) and the warrior was stunned, bleeding, and at negative mods to do anything. Of course, this made him fall back through the doorway, thusly exposing the ghoul to everyone else. Well, it still took them 4 or 5 more rounds (for a total of 9 to 10 rounds) to finish off the ghoul. A good fight for young adventurers.

Overall, I think the fight went well, and pretty realistic. One of my issues with RM (like Shadowrun) is that it is entirely more deadly than real life, like a lot. Yeah, one aspect of that is the all-or-nothing methodology used by both Players and GMs (through their NPCs - something I am going to try and get away from), but a big part of it was/is the deadliness of the crits. I do think there should be results that end in unconsciousness, so that players cannot "fight to the last" EVERY TIME. (Come on, people! I get it. CONTROL, CONTROL, CONTROL. But sometimes you don't have that. What is the difference between a spell taking control of your character or an extreme injury?!? I think none. Plus, there could be a cool, dramatic storyline with your character dealing with his bout of "cowardlyness".)

BTW: for the first session I used the crit tables right out from the main HARP book, but I switched to H&S for the second session - and I will be using H&S for the remainder of the campaign.

[Cory Magel]

We tried HARP out, but it just wasn't for us.  The limited spell pool which multiple professions learn from was a negative and the combat was a bit flat for us.  In regards to the spell selection, having unique base spell lists for the various professions in RM is a huge pro over HARP imo.  As for combat, we found that we were hitting attack 'caps' far too often, ending up with the same attack results over and over.  That may be due to our playstyle, but even so that still means it's just not our system.

Now, the way you learn and can scale spells I really like, but it needs to be combined with the uniqueness of RMs lists.

[Old Man]

We tried HARP out, but it just wasn't for us.  The limited spell pool which multiple professions learn from was a negative and the combat was a bit flat for us.  In regards to the spell selection, having unique base spell lists for the various professions in RM is a huge pro over HARP imo.  As for combat, we found that we were hitting attack 'caps' far too often, ending up with the same attack results over and over.  That may be due to our playstyle, but even so that still means it's just not our system.

Now, the way you learn and can scale spells I really like, but it needs to be combined with the uniqueness of RMs lists.

Cory, as an RM2 GM, those are roughly my main take-aways as well. I like the scaling options with spells, but would like more spell group/list options (covered by 2nd Ed CoM??). I'd be interested in checking out H&S (is that coming back with 2nd Ed HARP at some point?) but likely remain (for my personal campaign) with RM2.

[eduardo_go]

I think that would be interesting a new hack & slash book for H.A.R.P/H.A.R.P Sci-Fi with new content for both.

[Thom @ ICE]

At this time the focus for HARP is getting HARP Fantasy Core redone (layout wise) and have the errata that was identified implemented.  We've got CoM, ML and Loot following close behind. 

More products are in development.  Hack and Slash was looked at as a possible ML add-in, but we've decided to hold off until we can come up with the necessary fixes for it.  There have been plenty of threads around that discussed the issues with it so I won't spin off this one.

[Luxferre]

More products are in development.  Hack and Slash was looked at as a possible ML add-in, but we've decided to hold off until we can come up with the necessary fixes for it.  There have been plenty of threads around that discussed the issues with it so I won't spin off this one.

Can I get H&S somewhere? 

[WoeRie]

More products are in development.  Hack and Slash was looked at as a possible ML add-in, but we've decided to hold off until we can come up with the necessary fixes for it.  There have been plenty of threads around that discussed the issues with it so I won't spin off this one.

Can I get H&S somewhere? 

You can try this one: http://www.ebay.de/itm/ICE-HARP-BAZAAR-ANNUAL-3006-NEW-FANTASY-RPG-BOOK-/281054082568?pt=Games_US&hash=item417020f608 as the Bazaar Annual contains H&S.
But except of eBay and other second Hand Shops I doubt that you could get it somehwere..

[Luxferre]

too much shipping-costs to Hamburg ;-) but thanks anyway

[WoeRie]

24€ for book+shipping? I think this is still quite fair, if you compare it to the Prices of other RPG books.

[Warl]

Overall, I think the fight went well, and pretty realistic. One of my issues with RM (like Shadowrun) is that it is entirely more deadly than real life, like a lot. Yeah, one aspect of that is the all-or-nothing methodology used by both Players and GMs (through their NPCs - something I am going to try and get away from), but a big part of it was/is the deadliness of the crits. I do think there should be results that end in unconsciousness, so that players cannot "fight to the last" EVERY TIME. (Come on, people! I get it. CONTROL, CONTROL, CONTROL. But sometimes you don't have that. What is the difference between a spell taking control of your character or an extreme injury?!? I think none. Plus, there could be a cool, dramatic storyline with your character dealing with his bout of "cowardlyness".)

BTW: for the first session I used the crit tables right out from the main HARP book, but I switched to H&S for the second session - and I will be using H&S for the remainder of the campaign.

Firstly, I am not so certain that real Life isn't that deadly. Ever Spent time working in an ER?

But, that being said, since most of my Players Tend to take Ambush and Sniping, one thing I have instituted in my Game is to "Stretch out" the Crit charts so that Instant Killing Blows are a bit less common. I do this By Dividing the Crit Die roll Result By 2. (Depending on what you are looking for in your game, you could divide by 3 or 4) Thus requiring a High ambush or a Open Ended Roll to get to the "Deadly" Crits. To help Counter Balance this, I also Allow the Number of Ranks in your weapon skill To modify the Crit Die roll.

AS For Knocking Some one Unconscious. I have 2 methods one could go about this.

#1
Have a Max Stun point equal to 1/10th a Characters Constitution score. If you "accumulate" enough stun rounds to equal that number, you out.

#2
Stun Rounds Force an RR check. with the Total Number of Stun rounds accumulated = the attacker level. If you fail the RR check, your out for a Number of rounds equal to the failure.

[RandalThor]

Firstly, I am not so certain that real Life isn't that deadly. Ever Spent time working in an ER?

No, but I have done a little digging, and the vast majority of successful attacks don't end in death - even with firearms. The number of those that do in RM (& Shadowrun - even more so in SR) are significantly higher. Not sure I like the dividing the crit roll, I think my easiest fix would be to grant everything a basic bonus to DB (around 30 or so), but altering the crit roll is something to look into.

AS For Knocking Some one Unconscious. I have 2 methods one could go about this.

#1
Have a Max Stun point equal to 1/10th a Characters Constitution score. If you "accumulate" enough stun rounds to equal that number, you out.

#2
Stun Rounds Force an RR check. with the Total Number of Stun rounds accumulated = the attacker level. If you fail the RR check, your out for a Number of rounds equal to the failure.

Both of these are interesting options (I have thought of the first one before, though I think I was going with the attribute modifier as the # of stun rounds, that allows racial mods to come into play.) Option "b" could be done by averaging the character's level and Con or SD stat bonus.

Some cool things to work on here. Thanks.

[Old Man]

2nd Ed RM had an overstun rule - let me dig a sec ... Option 15 in Classic Arms Law ... If Stun > 5 + HP/10, PC unconscious until Stun <= 5 + HP/10.

[RandalThor]

The big problem with all of these methods (including the ones I put together) is that the number of stun rounds required is way higher than any that will be acquired through a hit. Even the electric crit table, the one with the most stuns, only goes to 8 before killing the target. That means that it always takes 2+ hits to get into the possible unconscious scenario, and with the way stuns work, the next hit is much more likely* to kill the target than anything else. I think it is that interaction of the stuns and attacks that causes the most killing, and other than lessening the bonus for stun, I don't know what to do here.


*An attacker will usually go all-out, so their OB would be higher, and you combine that with the lowered defense of the target, and you get much more deadly attacks - understandably.

[Warl]

Another way to o with Option 2, if you don't think there are enough tun rounds available in one attack crit, is to have each Stun round compound on the next... So 1 round of stun is equal to attacker level 1, 2 rounds of stun is attacker level 3 (1+2=3), 3 rounds of stun is attacker level 6 then 10 then 15 and so forth.
 or something to that effect.

Though if you watch Boxing, Most situations Don't end up in a 1 punch Knock out. Usually fights that end in a KO are usually the accumulation of Injuries, exhaustion and a Stunning hit. So KO isn't as common as all that either... movies tend to make it look like it is an easy thing to do.... which it isn't.

though in RM2/C there is a Subdual skill for doing just that with an attack.

[Thom @ ICE]

While I agree that the combat results are not necessarily Real Life, this is HARP - High Adventure Role Playing, and we're looking for more of the cinematic result rather than the "real life" result.

That being said, I am looking at some other combat options and playtesting them.  They would improve an individual's initial resistance to Stun, but with each stun critical received the target is weakened until the individual succumbs to the stun... and we all know what is likely to happen next.