Topic: Throw and Melee questions

[providence13]

Throw and Melee has always stuck in my craw, a bit. I may have asked this before, but set me straight again, please. (Long post, lots of words..)

How does this fit into the rules other than "it's written in the book".
Is this a carry-over from an older version of RM?

"If stationary, you can throw using 80% of normal OB and still melee with only a -20 OB" (RMFRP pg 215). IIUC, 80%OB is read as 80%Act as almost always, % in RM is %Act. % as the rest of the world understands it is used for MM.

They way I see it, throw is a missile attack. It's a missile attack because it's a ranged weapon and it's described under Missile Attacks rules. Missile attacks require 60%Act, -1OB/%Act under 60%; -30OB max at 30%Act. I  have heard an argument that thrown is only 20%Act.. but I digress..

Now this is further complicated by "you can melee in the same round by taking a -20OB". Melee attacks require 100%Act, -1OB/%Act under 100%; -40OB max at 60%Act.

Example:
According to the rules..
I throw a dagger at -20 OB the same round I melee attack with -20OB. This double whammy is 100%Act.

But according to my understanding of %Act, you could only perform this throw and melee using different numbers.
You could throw as a 30%Act, (min) with a -30OB, then melee as a 70%Act with a -30OB. This does add up to 100%Act if you ignore shifting object from one hand to the other for 10%Act. Using this, you'd have to throw at 30%Act -30 OB, and melee with 60%Act -40 OB.

I have a HR that modifies this and make it work for me, but it doesn't explain the above rules. That's why I think it's an old rule that was just ported like many others.
My HR allows multiple missile attacks/thrown objects if %Act allows. Reloading %Act will probably prevent this, but the possibility is there.
Each missile gets a roll. Same OB applies for all missiles.
Melee, however is still a series of blows which are resolved as one attack roll.

The HR came about by small thrown weapons in the Armory.
Shuriken, Rope Dart and Dart can all be thrown 2/rnd with a -10 to the attack (pg 18, 23 and 50, respectively) and this would make sense if each missile attack is 50%Act. This also ignores shifting objects from one hand to another; I guess you could throw with the off hand for another -20OB.
Maybe shifting isn't used because they only do Tiny crits, but I don't think that's relevant.

Help a guy out. I'm probably over thinking it.

[Kristen Mork]

I agree that it's a holdover.  That said, with this option in RMSS you can either:

• Throw a weapon (30% action at -30) and later make a melee attack (70% action at -30).
• Or, "Throw and Melee" with a -20 to both attacks.

I.e., the "Throw and Melee" option makes both attacks slightly more effective.

(Personally, my bigger issue is that if you run towards your opponent (say at 80% pace), you cannot also throw your weapon.  But, in reality, a common approach would be to throw a javelin/axe/etc. during the charge, leaving enough time to draw a weapon en route.  Thus, I allow up to 30% of the movement towards the target to count as part of the ranged attack.  So, you can run (80%) and throw (20+30% at -10) all in one round.)

[jaranka]

IIUC, 80%OB is read as 80%Act as almost always, % in RM is %Act. % as the rest of the world understands it is used for MM.

...

According to the rules..
I throw a dagger at -20 OB the same round I melee attack with -20OB. This double whammy is 100%Act.

It wouldn't be a flat -20 to both unless the character happened to have a 100 OB with the thrown weapon.  I think a lot of people have the wrong concept of OB and %activity, in that if a player spends 20% activity on movement, the GM will only give them 80% of their OB (and also even give them -20 activity penalty on the attack).  This is penalizing them twice for moving, which is wrong.

OB and %act are two different modifiers.  If someone has a 50 OB, and they move 20% and attack, assuming they didnt choose Press & Melee they would suffer a -20 to the attack, but still be able to use the full 50 OB.

In the Throw & Melee example, the character would suffer only a -10 to his thrown weapon OB (he'd still get 40, which is 80% of 50), and he would suffer a flat -20 from his melee action, presumably from %act.

Also keep in mind that the RAW assumes no shifting of weapons from one hand to another.  You throw with one hand and melee with the other, I guess taking an additional -20 for the unfamiliar hand.

[Marc R]

IMO It's a logic holdover from RM1, when -10 meant -10%. . .so if you had a -10 injury penalty to your 90 OB, you had 90x10%=9 90-9=81 OB.

If you make a thrown attack in RMSS at -20, i.e. 60-20=40. You make the attack at -20, leaving you 60% activity left to make a melee attack at -40.

Which in RM1 logic would be a missile attack at -20% (i.e. at 80%).

No idea how that made it through RM2 all the way into RMSS, but I wouldn't allow that RAW at my table.

YMMV

[providence13]

Yeah, like Marc R. pointed out, a certain % of OB (OB/100) is not used in RMSS or RMFRP. What we're really talking about is a certain %Activity of 100%Activity that someone can do in 1 rnd. Different actions require different %Activity. But it's never a % of OB; ie. OB/100.

So, if I move 20% of my movement for the round, that is 20% of my 100%Activity for the round (ignoring pace for a moment).
Now melee attacks want 100%Activity, but I've already moved 20%Act. I only have 80%Activity left to use on my melee attack which normally requires 100%Act. The modifier in RMSS/RMFRP is -20 OB; -1OB/%Act used less than the required amount. Melee attacks require a minimum of 60%Act which is -40OB penalty to whatever your OB is.

This is purely academic because the Throw and Melee option states that you must be stationary.

Oh, well. I can chalk it up to rules that no longer apply in today's day and times. Much like "if you are released from prison, it is required that you are given a handgun with bullets and a horse, so you can ride out of town" (Canada) or "Animals are banned from mating within 1500 ft of a tavern, school or place of worship" (Delaware). My home state is not exempt, "Elephants are not allowed to plow cotton fields" (NC). 

[markc]

 I sort of see it as maybe a special situation that you can do if you want. Yes it does not add up when you put the pieces together one by one but then that is why the special rule is there.
 I do not have a view one way or another as I use a different combat system with no special situations as it does not have a round structure. But for a round by round combat system it makes sense to me. I can also see special Combat Arts having special maneuvers all their own that adjust (break) the normal combat round rules.


MDC

[providence13]

markc, I'm sure that somebody will do that in RM. 
Some GM will make a "throw and melee" skill. But it doesn't work for my game.
OB/DB split is (usually) set in stone at the beginning of combat.
I guess it could be handled like 2-wpn combat; OB would be limited by the "throw and melee" skill bonus.
But why practice a skill that only allows you to throw and not move but melee if someone gets close?

There are other areas that muddy the waters further. Full Melee, Press & Melee, React & Melee..

I need to look at MACo again.

[markc]

 I can see the throw and melee option as a holding the line type maneuver, a fear maneuver or as a way to disrupt a charge type attack.
  I do agree that a throw and charge attack is better. And brings to mind the Francisca ax ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisca ) which was thrown into the ground to bounce up into the enemy line and disrupt it. ie attacking knees, shins and legs instead of just the body, arms and head.


MDC

[providence13]

Wow! an iron age Frisbee. That's pretty cool.

[markc]

Wow! an iron age Frisbee. That's pretty cool.

That is exactly what I thought after seeing a show on the History Channel talking about it.
MDC

[arakish]

Wow! an iron age Frisbee. That's pretty cool.

Actually, those were the chakram from India.  If you ever watched Xena, she used a chakram.  Saw a show called "Ultimate Warrior" that had these.  If thrown with enough force, they could easily decapitate a man and keep flying to take out a second one.  With enough force, a chakram could sever an arm, a leg, and almost literally sever a person in half.  Nasty frisbees.

rmfr