Topic: SPAM Classic ?

[arakish]

A hive mind whose component parts are microscopic - sentient viruses anyone?

You mean like the Enigman Invaders?  What has been frustrating the players in my current SM campaign is the fact that the Enigman Invaders are not any one single species.  Instead, they are a conglomeration of many, many different species which have been assimilated into the Overmind.

And guess how the assimilation process is done?  Through the spread of a virus that overwhelms the brain and nervous systems of the creature, allowing it to be controlled by the Overmind.

Fortunately, I have some great players which do not force me to come up with tens of thousands, even millions, of different species the Enigmans have assimilated.  They actually help out some with their own imaginations.  In one session, one player investigating a dead Enigman ship said, "Well, I see the Captain was a Species 8472 while the Helmsman was a Species 14832."  Of course I howled with laughter.  I couldn't help it.  At the time, it was so funny.

Ever since, we all now use the same terminology, Species 231, Species 583922, Species 54, etc.

You know, it makes me wonder how many different life forms we have come up with in all the movies, novels, and TV shows...  Couple million?  Half billion?

rmfr

[GrumpyOldFart]

No, this is sf and more than any other genre you must be guided by reason, research, and hard data.

Or so the argument goes anyhow.

In any kind of fantasy you have to get the details right, because unlike "realism", believability in fantasy is something that won't just happen by itself. In sf you don't necessarily have to stay within the bounds of what can be scientifically proven, but unless you want to lose everyone who found 'science' to be part of the draw of your scenario, you have to avoid what can be scientifically disproved.

And of course "believable" is easier to achieve if you don't involve yourself in the scientifically improbable. That's not to say you can't use such scientifically improbable things as FTL flight... only that it'll take more details being right to get the same believability if you do use such things.

[JimiSue]

Which is all well and good - but you have to take into account the "fiction" part of the genre as well. FTL flight might be improbable, but even interplanetary journeys become prohibitively time-consuming without bending the rules, never mind interstellar.

In any event, in the same way as Newton's laws of motion are good as far as they go, Einstein's laws of Relativity are exactly the same - they are good as far as they go, but it has been proven that they also break down in places, particularly at the quantum level. The thing about science is that tomorrow a new theory might be proven that allows us to produce controlled quantum uncertainty at a macro level, therefore allowing FTL travel, matter transference, maybe even time travel. You never know when or where the next breakthrough might happen - who would have guessed for instance that bread mould would give rise to modern antibiotics?

As a scientist myself with a broad interest in a number of fields, among which astronomy, cosmology, quantum and particle physics are only small parts of what I enjoy studying, I don't want to get bogged down in the technical details of how something works - for my mind it's good enough only to know that it does, and so long as any explaination has even a grain of possibility, that's enough for me! I don't need to see a starship technical manual to be able to suspent my disbelief to allow FTL travel and communication, particle accelerator cannons capable of being used as weapons over a distance of kilometres... we are after all here to have fun. So let your imagination flower!

P.S. Never heard of the Enigman Invaders sorry

[GrumpyOldFart]

Exactly. The more 'realistic' it is, the easier it is for the player to immerse himself in it, the easier it is to be "believable". That's not to say it can't be done otherwise, it's just easier.

On the other hand diarrhea is realistic enough, but either it doesn't help the story along any or, if it does, it's probably not a story I want to play in. Especially if it's believable.

 

Having fun with the story is the purpose. Believability is a strong tool to that end for some (even most?) stories, but it's hardly the only tool available and can in some instances (eg Paranoia) be seriously counterproductive. Regardless, it's a means not an end.

Believability, if you as a GM want it in your game, is detail oriented. The more improbabilities you throw into the scenario, the more the game mechanics have to get the fiddly little details right to maintain the same believability. Whether more or less believability is desirable in the first place is a GM call for his individual scenario.

[Defendi]

and there is no evidence of other races beyond that.  (worst feature of the setting IMO)

I should step in and make a minor correction here (not the worst feature part, but the no evidence part.)  In SM:P we know of one alien race, the Architects.  They are dead or gone, but where there's one there is likely to be another.  That was always going to be something explored in the setting as it's timeline advanced (which it never did, obviously).  You should feel completely free to explore it in your own games.  The known races are only the known races in known space.  There's always been a chance of something else out there somewhere.  Anyone who played in one of the con games got a hint of that, back in the day.

[arakish]

P.S. Never heard of the Enigman Invaders sorry

Why apologize?  Of course you never heard of the Enigman Invaders.  Although I have used the name Enigman Invaders during my wife's and mine Udavan campaign (1982-1997), I changed the way the Enigmans did their assimilation from a Gua'uld like method to a viral method.  And the telepathic-like communication amongst all the virus in the assimilated beings constitutes the Overmind.  Thus, no need to apologize.

In fact, I found it flattering that someone else came up with the same idea.

rmfr

and there is no evidence of other races beyond that.  (worst feature of the setting IMO)

I should step in and make a minor correction here (not the worst feature part, but the no evidence part.)  In SM:P we know of one alien race, the Architects.  They are dead or gone, but where there's one there is likely to be another.  That was always going to be something explored in the setting as it's timeline advanced (which it never did, obviously).  You should feel completely free to explore it in your own games.  The known races are only the known races in known space.  There's always been a chance of something else out there somewhere.  Anyone who played in one of the con games got a hint of that, back in the day.

For the life of me, I though for sure you had written somewhere in SMP and FL about the possibility of "other" life forms.  However, with a halfway thorough skimming of the books, I find you never wrote that "other" life forms possibly exist.

Anyway, one should always assume the possibility exists.  What if the Architects actually created the Seven to use as soldiers against an intractable enemy?  But, they destroyed each other before the experiment was completed.  What if that enemy created Seven "other" forms for them to use as soldiers?  Thus, there could be another Seven out there somewhere...  Perhaps more...

rmfr

[David Johansen]

I always thought the Architects were one of the seven.  While the Oorts are the best candidates, I have a soft spot for the idea that Valiesians did it.  The only clue we have is Earth's aborted Valiesian heritage.  But however it went I'd imagine the Architects are in a tight relativistic orbit around a neutron star or something so they can check on the results of their grand experiement when they get back from lunch.

The discussion of the Fermi Paradox (in the introduction IRRC) is a big part of the feeling that there's nothing else out there.  Though, mind controlling parasites might work to explain the Kagoth going crazy.  I still believe they're reverting to their actual nature after milenia of modified behavior.

[arakish]

The discussion of the Fermi Paradox (in the introduction IRRC) is a big part of the feeling that there's nothing else out there.

We were out dining with family, when my Aunt asked me about the possibility of life elsewhere and the Fermi Paradox.  I answered, "We have only been sending radio signals out into space, whether intential or not, for about a hundred years.  That means the furthest those signals have gotten is 100 light years.  What if the next closest intelligent life is 200 light years away?  That means the soonest any of our signals will reach them is another hundred years."  To which she replied, "How true."

Just because we have not heard from any other life does not necessarily mean they are not there.  One of my favorite quotes was made by Arthur C. Clark: "I'm sure the universe is full of intelligent life. It's just been too intelligent to come here."  To which I reply, "How true."

Though, mind controlling parasites might work to explain the Kagoth going crazy.  I still believe they're reverting to their actual nature after milenia of modified behavior.

Perhaps it is the Enigman Invaders Overmind trying to get a foothold in our area of the galaxy?

rmfr

[Nortti]

We purchased SM Privateers book, even if the campaign and races seem completely useless to us. Even a failure. It is however Rolemaster in space so by using our own campaign and races I´m sure it is great fun. We can make it work even if contents of the book seem contradictory - science and this setting & races don´t mix.

If there would be a version with a completely different setting IMO there would be more interest for SM. For me it was a no-no for a long time to buy Spacemaster just because of the pointless catman, dogman whateverman races. In the name of holy science: why would there be feline or canine humanoid races in different planets of the galaxy? Are elephantmen terrified of mousemen? Sorry if this sounds rude but as a customer I feel this way about this product.     

[arakish]

Are elephantmen terrified of mousemen?

   rotflmao

As for the other whateverman races, we did include vulfinoids and felinoids in our campaign.  However, we also have others as listed below (not all listed):

A type of cetacean (msp?) (dolphins/whales).

A naga-like species which are actually snakes that evolved pedipalps to help in manipulating their prey for consumption and later became intelligent.

A slug-like species that like the above, developed pedipalps and became intelligent.

Adalynkiis Adana, an amphibian species capable of breathing both water and air.

Hankara, a species that evolved on the gas giants and have little to do other species.  They are also capable of moving from star system to star system through means yet undiscovered by the others.

Couldn't remember the species names since I don't have the info here at work.  But that is a partial listing of some of the aliens in my FtF SM campaign.

And then there is the Urgons, Inur, Snekra, Khryshyn, and Enigman Invaders...

rmfr

[GrumpyOldFart]

In the name of holy science: why would there be feline or canine humanoid races in different planets of the galaxy?

I could see the sense in having maybe 2 alien species that are recognizably similar to "life as we know it". (That doesn't mean it has to be humanoid, my closest-to-human alien species looks vaguely like a huge starfish.) Carbon based, perhaps even sharing an extremely remote microbial ancestor with humans, perhaps not even protein based. One of those 2, sure, I could see maybe being so close to humanity that it would be _____ humanoid... sort of. But that species would be of a similar age to humanity and be expanding from a nearby area of space, too (as much as "nearby" means anything in space.) It would pretty much have to be, to be that closely related.

That one is a stretch. Several? Naah.

[JimiSue]

For me it was a no-no for a long time to buy Spacemaster just because of the pointless catman, dogman whateverman races. In the name of holy science: why would there be feline or canine humanoid races in different planets of the galaxy? Are elephantmen terrified of mousemen? Sorry if this sounds rude but as a customer I feel this way about this product.   

QFT. When I first read about that edition of Space Master I had a genuine LOL moment. And then a genuine OMG moment when I realised that it wasn't kidding. Intelligent versions of Terran animals were done to death in the Spellsinger books by Alan Dean Foster and I thought they were fairly pitiful then. For a new product, 20 years after those books, it ranks about -20 on a 1-10 imagination scale and definitely put me off - after all, if that's a sign of the amount of thought that's gone into one aspect of the game, can I really expect the rest of it to be any better? I have yet to find out.

However, for the benefit of the poster, it might be worth your time checking out Space Master 2nd edition. Although quite heavily influenced by popular science fiction of the time (late 80s/early 90s - it's a bit of a mash of Star Wars and Dune with a little bit of Star Trek thrown in too) it too is RM in space, has a completely different setting to Privateers, and no cute cat/girl hybrids (yawn). I think all the source books are now available somewhere on this site as pdfs.

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

I think all the source books are now available somewhere on this site as pdfs.

They are virtually all available from our area on www.rpgnow.com
(specifically http://www.rpgnow.com/index.php?cPath=1361_6498)

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[Nortti]

I like to support a local bookstore here that has Rolemaster in its inventory. We bought that SM:P from there and created characters. We also had a pre-game during which FTL space travel was discovered and characters managed to get training and join a pioneering space ship that will travel to stars to explore. Earth is seriously overpopulated and new resources and colonizable planets are much sought after.

That campaign world in SM2 sounds actually much better. Maybe I´ll get it to use as background material.

[David Johansen]

Since they invented nukes, the elephant men haven't been afraid of mice.  (only way to be sure...)

[ob1knorrb]

Since they invented nukes, the elephant men haven't been afraid of mice.  (only way to be sure...)

A laugh point for that   

[David Johansen]

Thank you I'll be here all...forever...try the veal.

Anyhow, the problem I see with animal-men is more prosaic.  They're dull and played out.  You can make them more interesting by developing them culturally and such but when it comes right down to it you've got a lot taller hill to climb.

Personally, parallel biology seems fairly likely.  First off there's the chemistry of life requiring certain conditions.  There's other potential chemistries but then there's the matter of energy.  Life is energetic and the less energy in a system the less likely life is.  On the other hand life can't take the heat either.  You're going to get the same rough predator, herbivore, reducer relationships going in a cycle and similar solutions to competition.  There's a lot of play in that but competitive evolution generally means form will follow function.  None of which is likely to produce a body builder with a tiger for a head of course but I think the very basic physical circumstances that allow for life will always mean life will be somewhat recognizable.

[markc]

  IMHO I think there is a cycle of human to animal (humanoid) to human and you just have to hit it right and be in touch with the young people.
MDC

[JimiSue]

Not necessarily. Roleplaying has been around a while now. I'm a member of a roleplaying club where we have upwards of 40 members, of which maybe 15 are regular attendees. Our youngest member has just had her 23rd birthday, while at 41 (wince) I'm not the oldest, but I'm fairly close (the oldest is about 46). The majority of players are in their late 20s/early 30s.

Now, I appreciate that the kind of games we play might not appeakl to the younger audience, but from what I've seen of demonstration games and indeed the young blood coming into the club, the youth of the moment prefers more skirmish-type games like D&D 4th, or hack and slash d20. A fully realised roleplaying game with a complex system allowing as much choice and variety as Rolemaster / Spacemaster does is generally something that gamers mature into rather than pick up at the start.

I'm not a marketing person so I could be wrong, but I would place the demographic most interested in this kind of game at 25+, and even then needing to have a few years of gaming under their belt first to get out of the "Legolas/Drizz't clone" and "kill 'em all' mentalities!

[Nortti]

Now, I appreciate that the kind of games we play might not appeakl to the younger audience, but from what I've seen of demonstration games and indeed the young blood coming into the club, the youth of the moment prefers more skirmish-type games like D&D 4th, or hack and slash d20. A fully realised roleplaying game with a complex system allowing as much choice and variety as Rolemaster / Spacemaster does is generally something that gamers mature into rather than pick up at the start.

I agree wholeheartedly. Younger gamers want more of a cinematic type of gaming with fast and entertaining combat. RM/SM system is too complex, slow and detailed for them. Or thats what they probably think it is. RM/SM is fast and entertaining when your group has learned it. Does HARP suit better for younger gamers? IMO SM system is a better match for a campaign without Earth-animal humanoids. Age of players is a factor here. Maybe animalhead humanoids was actually planned to give the SM:P a younger image?