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Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => Topic started by: nash on February 13, 2023, 11:25:03 PM
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So one of the defining features on RM2, RMSS, RMFRP[1] and now RMU, is that all the cover art characters[2] have a familiar, or something that seems to be a familiar. The Familiar spell is on a closed Essence list (Gate Mastery). For a non spell user that is 25 or more DP in RMSS (40 for a fighter). RMU it is a bargain at 15 DP. God knows for RM2 if you followed the core rules (B? picks, maybe one rank and they just waited for a lucky spell gain roll).
Is there a canonical way the adventurers were supposed to have each got a familiar?
A daily I, a nice set of runes, a really good sequence of rituals, or did everyone (who isn’t a essence pure or semi) just throw a quarter of their DP to get the spell? Maybe some other back door I missed?
[1] typically same art as RMSS but still
[2] on the core books at least
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I don't think there are canonical stats for any of those characters.
In RMSS/RMFRP, you could do animal companions with mentalism or a totem familiar with channeling (Spirit Law). There are also talents and background options for that sort of thing (e.g. Special Familiar in Character Law). Most of those are not in the core, although "loyal domesticated creature" and "loyal unusual creature" are background options in the RMSR.
You can also get animals from training packages, e.g. Animal Friend (various), Cloistered Academic (pet), Guardian (an animal companion), Shaman Priest (small animal companion)... and those are just in RMSR. Missionary in the Channeling Companion can grant "traveling companion/familiar" and Witch has "true familiar". The Essence Companion has Animal Handler (lots), Arachnamancer (pet spiders). Mentalism Companion has Beast Master, I stopped looking at that point.
In terms of items, Familiar is a 1st level spell, and you only need to cast it 7 times. At RMFRP Treasure Law prices, you could get 7 one-shot items for 7x14=98gp, a Daily I item for 130gp (but that covers the entire party if you hand it around), a wand for 180gp, 7 potions for 7x24=168gp, or 7 runes for 7x16=112gp. And quite a few TPs can grant Daily I items.
So... lots of ways.
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You just need someone like Angus McBride to paint you one!
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You just need someone like Angus McBride to paint you one!
The McBride covers on RM2 helped sell me on rolemaster. But the familiars have been bugging me for over three decades.
What is even worse is that semi and non spell users may never learn closed lists according to Rolemaster spell law 2nd edition. Page 8. “Semi spell users and Non spell users may never learn closed spell lists of any realm.”
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Wands of Familiar. I've had 2 PCs who, when they started, they were rewarded for a first solo adventure with a wand of Familiar. They had to find the creature they wanted, and make sure the wand uses were successful, but then they had familiars. And if you want to see a player really work to protect their assets, try a character that can't get a new familiar without a lot of help!
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On a vaguely related question; In RMU spell casters no longer get extra base lists right?
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On a vaguely related question; In RMU spell casters no longer get extra base lists right?
Yeah in RMU casters only get 6 base lists, but with Open lists being the same cost as Base, I feel this works very well. Strangely, none of my players who have played earlier versions of RM have even mentioned this!
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On a vaguely related question; In RMU spell casters no longer get extra base lists right?
Yeah in RMU casters only get 6 base lists, but with Open lists being the same cost as Base, I feel this works very well.
I like it too.
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There is only one familiar there. The Illusionist is just offering a lot of decoy targets.
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For RMSS, all the training package spell lists would still be available to semis, and probably at a good discount.
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Wands of Familiar. I've had 2 PCs who, when they started, they were rewarded for a first solo adventure with a wand of Familiar. They had to find the creature they wanted, and make sure the wand uses were successful, but then they had familiars. And if you want to see a player really work to protect their assets, try a character that can't get a new familiar without a lot of help!
A good reliable source of income for those with the skills would be crafting items of Familiar (Wands, Runes, Daily Is, etc) for wealthy nobles and merchants. A familiar would be amazing tool as a spy in all sorts of situations. Not to mention as a reliable messenger. Familiars would be super useful to lots of people in a fantasy setting. Almost anyone who could afford it really.
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Nice option for a high-end pet store, but it also gives a vulnerability.
Of course, the cost of producing items to cast Familiar off the Dark Summons list is the same. Who is your familiar really serving?
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Nice option for a high-end pet store, but it also gives a vulnerability.
For most merchants or even politicians the risk is probably small. The -25 is a real big deal for adventurers.
Of course, the cost of producing items to cast Familiar off the Dark Summons list is the same. Who is your familiar really serving?
Aren't the spells essentially identical?
Aside from some weird grammatical changes[1]; aren't the spells identical?
So another thing.. for some reason I had always assumed you were limited to one familiar? But there is no restriction like that presented in the spell (although the grammar implies it).
As another aside; should the grammar here and in other places be updated to use "serve as their familiar"?
[1] Dark Summons says "once each day" while Gate Mastery says "daily" & Dark Summons says "(can be no more" while Gate Mastery say "(which can be no more".
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The spell descriptions are basically the same, however:
10.3. Demon Summoning and Familiar Spirits
The Evil Channeling lists Demonic Pacts and Demonic Summons deal with the bringing of demons into the caster’s world and obtaining demonic help.
This is an evil spell list that is about working with demons; my reading is that you are causing the animal to be possessed by a very minor demon. The result is a somewhat smarter-than-normal animal whose eyes you can see through, but the method is very different (or maybe it's similar and the Familiar spell from the other list is just using some different kind of minor extraplanar being).
Exactly how you choose to interpret the Evil spell lists is left to the GM as a setting issue, but they should actually be evil and should come with some kind of cost. If you don't posit that there are sources of evil and malevolent power, the lists don't make much sense and it would be more sensible to omit them.
As for "their," we did not adopt a style that uniformly uses a neutral pronoun, so you will see both "his" and "their" in different places. There's an argument that could be made that we should have, but we didn't.
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Dark Summons is Evil Essence. Nothing to do with demons (the Investiture spells explicitly enhance the familiar with additions of the caster's own life force). Demonic Summons does not include Familiar. Demonic Pacts does offer Familiar Spirit spells, and these do provide demonic familiars, but the differences between this and the Familiar spell mean that you'd have to be completely magically naive to not notice the difference well before the familiar spirit showed up.
[All of this assuming no changes since Beta, of course.]
I don't think that just because a spell comes off of an Evil list that using an item with that power is going to corrupt you, especially when it's just duplicating a normal spell, and without even a benefit over the normal spell. The methods of training of the original caster are bad, but that's on the original caster. At the least, you should make it apparent to the person who would use the item that this item is somehow tainted before they employ it. To do otherwise makes it far too easy for the powers of darkness. I'd let an item-user cast Familiar without issue even if the spell was embedded as cast from Dark Summons, myself. Now, if someone used an item to gain a familiar spirit, that's dealing with demons, and using an item doesn't get around that. The dark powers will demand a price, though it might well be less than required to gain the list for oneself. Likewise, creating undead horrors or warping the very essence aren't going to be done without consequences of some kind.
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It's interesting that the non-evil Gate Mastery includes spells dealing with Demons and the Dark Summons list doesn't. I've always been confused about Gate Mastery not being in the evil list category. And for that matter why is the Darkness list inherently evil. I think that really works best on the side of "evil is just what the superstitious peasants don't like". So whether Familiar on the Dark Summons list is inherently dangerous really depends on how evil spell lists are handled in any particular setting. In the Shadow World they draw from the Unlife, so there's true danger. But in other settings there's probably nothing different or dangerous about it.
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In RMU Spell Law, Gate Mastery does not summon demons. It provides familiars, basic Summon spells for beasts, and elemental summoning.
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That makes much more sense. I'll add that to my list of things I like about RMU.
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So one of the defining features on RM2, RMSS, RMFRP[1] and now RMU, is that all the cover art characters[2] have a familiar, or something that seems to be a familiar.
They may just be… pets, you know? …like, absolutely normal pets.
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So one of the defining features on RM2, RMSS, RMFRP[1] and now RMU, is that all the cover art characters[2] have a familiar, or something that seems to be a familiar.
They may just be… pets, you know? …like, absolutely normal pets.
As simple as that. After all, it's a fantasy setting, or many fantasy settings, where the valid reasons given in one might not apply to the others. And before the word splitters jump in; I'm talking about any GM's fantasy setting.
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Dark Summons is Evil Essence. Nothing to do with demons (the Investiture spells explicitly enhance the familiar with additions of the caster's own life force). Demonic Summons does not include Familiar. Demonic Pacts does offer Familiar Spirit spells, and these do provide demonic familiars, but the differences between this and the Familiar spell mean that you'd have to be completely magically naive to not notice the difference well before the familiar spirit showed up.
[All of this assuming no changes since Beta, of course.]
I mixed those up. That said, personally I would still say if it's an evil spell list, there needs to be something evil about it.
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They may just be… pets, you know? …like, absolutely normal pets.
Actually we can rule that one out:
https://ironcrown.co.uk/ICEforums/index.php?topic=20870.msg242782#msg242782 (https://ironcrown.co.uk/ICEforums/index.php?topic=20870.msg242782#msg242782)
Officially they are all familiars. ;-)
Practically, it would not be weird for a couple to be non-familiars. But a group of people, who all have very loyal, very well behaved, kinda weird selection of pets is also unusual. One or two (hello animist/druid/ranger) does not stand out, but when they all have it... we are back to pretty much the same question: "how did everyone get their loyal unusual creature".
Familiar as some sort of TP/prosaic/RMU-equiv list, or just the utility being well known and hence commonly enchanted makes a lot of sense.
Casting 7 times makes the ritual way a bit risky, but I wonder if that could be another way.
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Meh, I'm not the artist, I didn't even commission the art. They look like familiars to me, that's as far as that goes.
That said, I listed a lot of ways it could happen in RMSS. Many of those ways are not in the core so it wasn't until the expansion material came out that there was the full suite of options. For RMU, the expansion material isn't out yet.
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Meh, I'm not the artist, I didn't even commission the art. They look like familiars to me, that's as far as that goes.
Never let context get in the way of proving the point on the internet ;-)
FWIW; way back when I first played RM2, the person who first introduced me to the game; pointed it it was weird they all had familiars, because it is closed essence, and only pure essence and essence hybrids could cast closed lists. So this question has literally been in the back of my head for three freaking decades. But the point was even in the McBride covers we all assumed they were familiars back then.
That said, I listed a lot of ways it could happen in RMSS. Many of those ways are not in the core so it wasn't until the expansion material came out that there was the full suite of options.
Don't get me wrong; I really like this neat detail that everyone picked up a Closed Essence list at some point or got an item to get a Familiar. It's so Rolemaster that you customise your character to get something "out of class" because it's cool/fun/interesting.
For RMU, the expansion material isn't out yet.
Fixed that for you ;-).
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So another thing.. for some reason I had always assumed you were limited to one familiar? But there is no restriction like that presented in the spell (although the grammar implies it).
So this question slipped through: There is nothing in the spell description that says you can only have one Familiar.
Aside from the fact -50 for two weeks pretty much knocks you out of the game for a fortnight, can you have multiple familiars?
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So this question slipped through: There is nothing in the spell description that says you can only have one Familiar.
Crazy cat lady Illusionist?
Actually, two Familiars seems like the most that would be practical, and you'd need to double concentrate to control both at once (and otherwise, they're just somewhat brighter and more loyal pets). You could get a little more flexibility with a menagerie, but with increasing vulnerability. I don't really think it needs to be restricted to one familiar at a time. Enhanced familiars from the Evil list Dark Summons are more useful, but the vulnerability is greater. Given the generally OP nature of Evil lists, I again don't think this is a problem. The same applies to familiar spirits. And the more grotesque evil familiars become harder to keep secret or excuse as "the ugly one in the litter" as they multiply.
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Crazy cat lady Illusionist?
Haha, that would be awesome.
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So another thing.. for some reason I had always assumed you were limited to one familiar? But there is no restriction like that presented in the spell (although the grammar implies it).
I'd say that the existence in the "Familiar's Law" spell list, a spell list specialised and dedicated to the management of familiars, of a "Second familiar" and a "Third familiar" spell in order to get more than one familiar strongly suggests one may only have one familiar…
That being said, indeed, nothing about the matter is explicitly written in the spell's description so it's up to GM to decide, IMO. As far as I'm concerned, I allow one familiar per such spell, meaning a character may have as many familiars as he actually knows (different) familiar spells.
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I'd say that the existence in the "Familiar's Law" spell list, a spell list specialised and dedicated to the management of familiars...
What book is Familiar's Law in?
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RoCo. I
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I'd say that the existence in the "Familiar's Law" spell list, a spell list specialised and dedicated to the management of familiars...
What book is Familiar's Law in?
Unfamiliar Familiar's Law?