Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => Topic started by: Sable Wyvern on December 20, 2017, 05:46:41 AM
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So, come January, I'll be running RM for the first time in at least 10 years. My last attempt didn't work out so well, and was quite short-lived for a few reasons, but mainly, I think, because I tried doing a number of things differently than the tried and true methods I had in the past.
MERP, then RM2, then RMSS were the games I ran almost exclusively for about a decade from 1987. I long intended to undertake an effort to develop a system the used the best of RM2 and RMSS, and about nine months ago I suddenly decided it was time.
In the end, I've taken very little from RM2, other than the potential stat generation method. My main changes were to massively streamline the RMSS skill list, removing skills that basically just support other skills, are mainly required in order to be good at something else, or that are too finely focused. I combined a number of categories, added the Medical category, and made a few relatively minor changes here and there to other skills.
I also built a setting that, from the ground up, was designed to reflect some of the assumptions found in the rules themselves, instead of building a world completely independently and then just happening to use RM to play in it.
Possibly a significant part of it is just my enthusiasm rubbing off, but the group seems genuinely excited.
The PCs
Hobgoblin Paladin of Maukus
Within the setting, hobgoblins are a civilised, honourable, martial race. Statistically, they're basically High Men with a few traditional hobgoblin traits. Maukus is a god of war and wisdom, so this is just a straight up fighting paladin with some support spells.
Sprikkas Arcane Elementalist
Sprikkas are a strange, solitary, alien, immortal, magically-inclined race built on the elven template. The player of this character is the only member of the group other than me with any significant RM experience, although the bulk of his experience was with RM2.
Goblin Rogue
Goblins are pretty much the Underground Races kobold, without daylight penalties. The player was a bit underwhelmed with how his character turned out in our recently finished Hackmaster game, and he wanted an effective, front-line fighter. At the same time, he didn't want anything too generic, and he didn't want to be limited to just being a fighter. I sold him on a goblin rogue, which I also took as an opportunity to show of the strengths of the system, and built him a highly effective character, the massive racial St penalty notwithstanding.
Hill Tribe Healer
This player loves the concept of the RM Healer (he played one for a few sessions in my previous short-lived RM game), but he also really wanted to play a monk. In the end, he asked if there was a way to combine the two. This was an even greater opportunity to showcase the versatility of the system. He's ended up with a fully effective healer that also has high Athletics and Adrenal Move skills, some spells to assist with defence and mobility, and a respectable +66 in Polearm. [Edit: For context here, I should mention they're starting at Level 4]
Hill Tribe Barbarian
This player's first experience with roleplaying was our previous Hackmaster game. Her partner sold her on a cleric for that game, but she quickly realised that she mainly enjoys killing stuff in combat, and any other opportunity to roll dice. I recommended barbarian, as a rock-solid combatant who can also be the group's primary tracker/outdoorsman.
Educated Urban Human Magent
This player is quite enamoured of the system so far. He really likes the way the magic system works and the wide range of spells with a lot of different, subtle effects, as well as the ability to play a spell user who's still a competent combatant and isn't completely reliant on spells. He's become a little concerned that some of his skill values are sub-par, but I'm assuring him that his spells go a long way to making up the difference, and the character will only grow more powerful.
Human Wizard
This one was built without a lot of deep thought put into the decision. The profession list was perused, whittled down to a short-list of 2 or 3, and then he quickly settled on wizard. I've warned the player the character will be potent against other spell users but may sometimes have more limited utility. He's fine with that, and the elementalist player is very happy to have another arcanist in the group.
Human Cultist of the Moon
Cultist of the Moon is just my fancy name for one class of specialty priest. This particular priest is a member of the Cult of Aharzab Ahaz, which essentially preaches the doctrine of the Prosperity Gospel. This player has a tendency to come up with concepts that push the boundaries of what works within a given setting. He was initially planning on playing a Warlock who had sold his soul to a demon (http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=18009.msg217499#msg217499), but obviously had far too much time to think more and ended up deciding to play a semi-heretical cleric trying to create a cult dedicated to his own personage. Fortunately, he's reasonable guy, and I was able to identify the core of the concept and build on that in a slightly different direction to the one originally envisaged. In the end, we arrived at an interesting backstory and excellent motivation for the character moving forwards, while removing some of the more gimmicky parts of the concept that I felt would prove disruptive.
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Very flavorful characters and setting !
So if I understand correctly, you used RMSS as a base and changed some of the categories and skills ?
What did you not like in the RAW to actually put so much work in redesigning the categories ? Was it a "show stopper" for you playing the RAW or would you still be willing to participate in a "vanilla" game ?
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Just too many skills, and too many of them too pointless. Locklore, just to get a bonus to pick locks? Use Poison, Poison Lore, Use/Remove Poison? Tracking, Read Tracks? So many extremely narrow perception skills? First Aid, Second Aid, Surgery, Midwifery, three herb skills and Diagnostics (and spread around a multitude of different categories, many extremely expensive) just to be a halfway decent mundane healer?
When using the full, default skill list, for some perfectly reasonable concepts, to build an effective character that isn't hyper-specialised, you need a massive pile of DP and you have to be extremely careful that you haven't missed something.
I wanted players to be able to easily identify their key skills and just buy them, and then feel free to spend any extra DP wherever it suits them, without having to worry about missing some critical but hidden requirement or grabbing something only to realise it only works properly in conjunction with something else. As a result, a lot of narrowly-defined skills were dropped completely.
As to the categories:
- I combined Plate and Chain into a single Armour Heavy.
- I combined the Artistic categories into one.
- I combined Athletic Brawn and Endurance
- I combined Craft and Tech Trade General
- I combined Tech Trade Voc and Tech Trade Adv
- I rolled Silent Kill into Ambush and made Sub (Attack) a combined progression since it only has one skill.
- I combined Awareness Senses and Searching
- I combined Special Attack and Combat Maneouvres, and made it a standard progression. In future, I'll fold Martial Arts Combat Man. in here as well to remove the massive and essentially pointless duplication. I'm leaving it out at the moment because there aren't any martial artists in the group and I'm not sufficiently motivated to change my Excel character sheet to account for it.
- I combined Sub General and Sub Stealth
- I created the Medical category and moved all the medical skills here.
In some case, categories were combined because I'd dropped enough skills the original categories weren't worth keeping. In others, I felt the original separations of categories were already unnecessary. Sure, Crafts have a distinctive focus and Tech Trade General another, but both categories essentially represent basic trade and vocational skills typically learned in a practical fashion, and I don't see any meaningful benefit to separating them. There is a clear distinction between artistic active and passive, but it's still an arbitrary one (how much do painting and composing poetry have in common?) and putting them in two categories really only serves to make it harder to develop these (already limited-utility) skills because you have two categories to cover.
In general, the guiding principle remained making it easy to make an effective character.
RM2 started with a tiny skill list and reasonable number of secondary skills. The companions added a massive number of additional skills, and RMSS imported all these, but characters never received more DP to pay for them and many, if they're in use, become essential skills rather than secondary ones.
If someone in my group decides they want to run RM, I'd play with whatever set of rules they decide upon, but if they're using full, default RMSS list, I'd hope they're giving out a lot of DP. Realistically, I'd expect them to just use my rules. What a random other RM GM does is irrelevant, because I game with friends, but if, hypothetically, I was looking for a group: no, using the full list would not be a deal breaker.
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Edit window closed.
Correction: I combined Sub (Mech) and Sub (Stealth). Sub (General) is the new name for the category.
As an aside, this is an example of a situation where the Everyman and Occupational rules are handy. After pruning, the only Sub Stealth skills I had left were Stalk/Hide and Sleight of Hand, so it wasn't worth keeping the category. Professions good at Stealth but not Mechanics pay a higher price, but they got Stalk/Hide as Everyman or Occupational, and there is little change in overall effectiveness.
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I kind of agree with you that there are too many similar skills. I prefer to give a bit more DP to players to compensate for that though as there are a lot of side-effects of changing the categories and skills (profession cost, Training Packages, etc)
You seem to have put a lot of work in your redesign so I can only praise your efforts !
Let's hope RMU did some cleanup in the bloated skill list of RMSS
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There are also (at least in RM2) a lot of useless skills. Do we really need the stilt walking skill? The pole vaulting skill? The tightrope walking skill? The reverse stroke skill? The control lycanthropy skill? The midwifery skill? Honestly, how often did any of you ever used them?
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Yes you're right ... some of them could be useful in some very narrow situation but a lot of them are useless in a high fantasy gaming environment (midwifery is a good contender)
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I kind of agree with you that there are too many similar skills. I prefer to give a bit more DP to players to compensate for that though as there are a lot of side-effects of changing the categories and skills (profession cost, Training Packages, etc)
Giving more DP per level is generally how I dealt with it, as well, but I can get behind some of these skill and category combinations and will give them a look-see.
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I kind of agree with you that there are too many similar skills. I prefer to give a bit more DP to players to compensate for that though as there are a lot of side-effects of changing the categories and skills (profession cost, Training Packages, etc)
You seem to have put a lot of work in your redesign so I can only praise your efforts !
Let's hope RMU did some cleanup in the bloated skill list of RMSS
I've actually dropped training packages entirely. I didn't like the item effects, and their main benefit is really as a way to get around the issues inherent in a large and unwieldy skill list, a problem I minimised by making the skill system smaller and less unwieldy.
Doing all the new skill costs was time consuming, but not actually all that difficult.
For anyone interested in more precise details, here is my houserules document in it's current, nearly-but-not-quite-complete state.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DNrUS69dlfjDBeiBY0P7B1my9p-xQoAs/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DNrUS69dlfjDBeiBY0P7B1my9p-xQoAs/view?usp=sharing)
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Well, personally I kind of like the RMSS Training Packages. I find them useful for several reasons:
- They help players build a character archetype
- They streamline the creation process for new players by using a good chunk of their Apprentiship DPs for useful (mostly) skills related to their chosen archetype
- Some packages even give more ranks than what would usually be attainable for a first level character (i.e. Berserker gives 4 Ranks in Self Control and 4 Ranks in Frenzy), making the archetype playable as a first level.
- The Specials are just icing on the cake as they can help round the character with better than average items. As a side effect, my players can choose more varied Talents and Flaws instead of choosing that +20 Magic Sword.
Despite this I understand where you're coming from by revising the skills (as I have also tried to do this in the past). But I always came back to the RAW at one point or another as it was simpler and not so bad after all.
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I personally think the Training Packages should be the default (only?) way to level up. Rather than cherry-picking skills and stuff, one would just pay fo the cost of a TP and gain the appropriate ranks. With some rules about additional cost for changing TP, taking into account going from a non-spell user to a semi to a pure to an hybrid, it'd even allow "changing" professions. Or having a flowchart to see which TP can be bought from which TP.
To me, getting rid of skill costs is nothing but a huge gain.
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Or having a flowchart to see which TP can be bought from which TP.
Sounds like you might like how Warhammer Fantasy RPG does it, which is basically that. Not that you have to go from one specific career (as the call them) to another specific career, just that certain "career trees" are more optimal than others. Though it can be fun to deviate, go from the Charcoal Burner (actual profession) to Pit Fighter - or something equally unusual.
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I'm actually quite inspired by how Warhammer Fantasy RPG does it. ;)
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I'm actually quite inspired by how Warhammer Fantasy RPG does it. ;)
You know, one of the things about the WHRPG I like is how they encourage trying to do things better. By that I mean, your character can have a 45% in something (a completely competent skill level), which assumes that you will be performing the skill under some sort of duress/conflict. So, if you actively take time to do it better you will get a bonus. On the flip side, your skill total in most games reflects your best chance (or nearly so) and have all these mods to indicate difficulty, and are totally expected to be used in just about every circumstance, to one degree or another. Most of these mods are to make it harder, with only a couple to reflect doing things to actively make it easier - definitely weighted towards making it more difficult. By having it the other way, the WHRPG encourages the players to actively try and figure out ways to make it more likely they will succeed, which just makes them think. And I like that in a game. If your chance to succeed will go from 45% to 75% you will very likely put more effort into figuring it out.
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Rolemaster isn't all that explicit about it, but I think it's important to have a similar outlook. Medium difficulty, to me, represents an attempt to conduct the skill under some kind of pressure or stress and where a competent person wouldn't necessarily succeed.
Similarly, (to me) Routine signifies something that would not usually require a roll at all, but does because of the prevailing circumstances (eg, "Yes, climbing the ladder is easy. However, you have a broken leg. Make a Routine manoeuvre, but add your -100 broken leg penalty.")
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Don't get me wrong, I love RM (it is listed as my favorite rpg on RPG.net for a reason), but I feel the way the WHRPG does it encourages the players to think about doing something better.
Take your example, for example (see what I did there? :o): Knowing you are likely going to fall and hurt yourself even more - lets say you would have a 25% chance of successfully climbing the ladder with a broken leg in WH - you will look around for things you can use and/or ways in which the other characters might be able to help. In other words: interacting with the gaming environment. Too often I see players just looking at their character sheet to see what they can do in a given situation; they ignore the world around them which has much more in most cases. I like to encourage ingenuity and creative methods for solving problems, those are some of my most fondest gaming memories, not that we killed the dragon, but the fact that we tricked it into a position that allowed us to defeat it, particularly with no loss of life on our side.
Of course, the WH method isn't the only method for this, it just strikes me as an easy one to implement. It does suffer from something I don't like though: limited range of growth. If all you do is go from 25% to 50%, then the growth isn't there, at least not as much as I like. I am a fan of having a fairly large scale. Meaning, you can accurately (at least as much as you can in any rpg) depict a house cat/child to gods and goddesses, with in-game stats. So, you can have that teenager in the beginning who doesn't know much of anything about soldiering (or wizardry, or priestly matters), and after 10-years (in-game time) of experience and training show how much they have changed with the stats on the sheet. (This is also a problem for D&D 5E, they have a whopping 1-5 scale for professional bonus, +2 at first level, to +6 at 18th, I believe. Not enough to reflect the growth in my opinion, I would prefer it at least go 1 to 10.)
Sorry, I think I have threadjacked a bit. Feel free to ignore, or toss into its own thread. :-[
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Our RM group just started playing WHRPG and it is an easier concept without a lot of math like RM = roll under your total % for skills with a few even numbered bonii.
That said, I loathe rolling low for success...too RM-centrically trained, mentally, and just cannot stand seeing 88s, 99s, and 00s going to waste!
RM soon!
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im always impressed with the tweeks GMs make to their game rules. i think rolemaster is unique in that every campaign has its own house rules and variations that meet the needs of each unique playgroup.
iv GMd rolemaster exclusively for 25yrs but i have taken long breaks during that period of time.
i recently created a set of Weapon Specialization rules for combat that give characters combo's/free actions or access to complementary skills such as weapon brawling, martial arts, disarming etc. I agree the DPs needed to really create a well rounded character can be quite limiting. For this reason i let characters get free weapon specialisation 'picks' at full level up provided they have the prerequisite skill rank to get it. So for example yu need to have skill rank 12 in a weapon to qualify for your first weapon specialisation pick and on average you can get another pick every 3 skill ranks after that. weapon specs are grouped into similar weapon categories eg. 1h-edged, bows, 2-handed etc although there are a few picks only available to specific weapons such as rapier or quarterstaff.
What the weapon spec's do is give characters a real incentive to develop weapon skills to a high level.
Another recent rules adaption i have made is incorporating Talent Law. I allow talents to be developed similar to spell lists at 4/* per talent (more powerful talents cost more dp's). Because most of my pcs are already level 5-6 i let them develop a talent at 1/3, 1/2 and 3/4 level and then they get to make a talent gain roll at full level up to see if they get the talent then. This lets players really customise their character and add all manner of talents and flaws that relate to their in game adventures.
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im always impressed with the tweeks GMs make to their game rules. i think rolemaster is unique in that every campaign has its own house rules and variations that meet the needs of each unique playgroup.
Actually this is the norm for almost every game system that is setting neutral. It is also extremely common for those games with a strong setting identity.
Playing games RAW is the least likely situation but then GMs are world builders and they will always shape the rules of the game to enable them to build the world they imagine.
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im always impressed with the tweeks GMs make to their game rules. i think rolemaster is unique in that every campaign has its own house rules and variations that meet the needs of each unique playgroup.
Actually this is the norm for almost every game system that is setting neutral. It is also extremely common for those games with a strong setting identity.
Playing games RAW is the least likely situation but then GMs are world builders and they will always shape the rules of the game to enable them to build the world they imagine.
i guess im speaking from my own experience with original D&D where there are fewer options to deviate from the core rules.iv also played MERP, Runequest and Stormbringer and Gamma World. Rolemaster imo has the most scope to develop variant rules and select from the largest amount of options. Not saying this isnt possible in those other game systems but you seem to have more choices in rolemaster whether it is changing/tweeking skills available, initiative. combat or spells rolemaster is ready to be shaped and molded more than the other systems.
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Rolemaster certainly did invite customization with its optional rules. DnD definitely did release a lot of stuff back in the day that was optional, but those seem to me to be more things like additional classes and races; Rolemaster offered new classes and races along with a ton of new mechanics or alternate ways of dealing with core mechanics.
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iv also played MERP, Runequest and Stormbringer and Gamma World.
All of these are world-specific games so, obviously, they require less customisation (if any!) than a setting neutral system such as RM, which is supposed to work in any kind of (fantasy) world.
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im always impressed with the tweeks GMs make to their game rules. i think rolemaster is unique in that every campaign has its own house rules and variations that meet the needs of each unique playgroup.
Actually this is the norm for almost every game system that is setting neutral. It is also extremely common for those games with a strong setting identity.
Playing games RAW is the least likely situation but then GMs are world builders and they will always shape the rules of the game to enable them to build the world they imagine.
i guess im speaking from my own experience with original D&D where there are fewer options to deviate from the core rules.iv also played MERP, Runequest and Stormbringer and Gamma World. Rolemaster imo has the most scope to develop variant rules and select from the largest amount of options. Not saying this isnt possible in those other game systems but you seem to have more choices in rolemaster whether it is changing/tweeking skills available, initiative. combat or spells rolemaster is ready to be shaped and molded more than the other systems.
I haven't played D&D in a very long time but when I did we 'changed the game' almost monthly when new spells, classes etc were featured in White Dwarf or Dragon magazine. Over on DM's Guild so far this week they have added 2 new professions and a document on home brewing weapons.
I think house ruling is something GMs do and will always do, and the system is of little consequence. Of greater importance is the gap between the default rules and the game setting.
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I've never cared for RMSS training packages at all. Basically I find them deeply flawed, especially the ones they came up with for settings outside traditional fantasy. WHFRP's careers and exit paths are quite different, and to me much more interesting because they also build a compelling story for a character. It's not "spend the DPs and get some oddly matched skills," it's more a matter of what skills and equipment you need to move on to the next career if you so choose (WHFRP doesn't make you do that, though). It's a fascinating system, and one I think is under-appreciated.
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In other news, the first session was a success last night. Combat ran smoothly and everyone appears to have got a handle on the system quite quickly.
A number of players are fascinated by the magic system and the number of options at their disposal, and pretty much everyone is happy with the skills and abilities they have access to.
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In other news, the first session was a success last night. Combat ran smoothly and everyone appears to have got a handle on the system quite quickly.
A number of players are fascinated by the magic system and the number of options at their disposal, and pretty much everyone is happy with the skills and abilities they have access to.
Good to hear!
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Good stuff!
Keep it up and preach the RM gospel.
;D
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I'm amused and happy with some further feedback from my players.
The first session involved some run-ins with foes that were mainly farmers, and the group of 4th level PCs rolled them while barely breaking a sweat (the second engagement occurred under a new moon, with all the PCs enjoying nightvision, magical stealth enhancement and the enemy bonfire magically extinguished). The Culraug I intended to provide a more significant threat was shockbolted and stunned before getting it's first spell away, and then had it's leg lopped off before before recovering from stun. The actual farmers were cut to pieces.
The PCs walked away unscathed (the PC Paladin took a few concussion hits, but only because on a couple of occasions I didn't penalise the enemy sufficiently for fighting in nearly pitch darkness). I don't resent their success, it was a well-planned assault; they made excellent use of their available spells and abilities, and deserved the win.
I'm amused that the fighter-types are all reminding each other not to get too cocky, as they were only fighting farmers, and I've discovered that the paladin and the goblin rogue have fully absorbed the fact that they could very easily be on the receiving end of the pain in the future. Being who they are, they're both going to be aggressive when the need to fight arises, but they're both also petrified that they're going to get hurt and hurt badly -- an attitude that should ensure they continue to find the combats exciting and a little scary.
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I'm amused and happy with some further feedback from my players.
The first session involved some run-ins with foes that were mainly farmers, and the group of 4th level PCs rolled them while barely breaking a sweat (the second engagement occurred under a new moon, with all the PCs enjoying nightvision, magical stealth enhancement and the enemy bonfire magically extinguished). The Culraug I intended to provide a more significant threat was shockbolted and stunned before getting it's first spell away, and then had it's leg lopped off before before recovering from stun. The actual farmers were cut to pieces.
The PCs walked away unscathed (the PC Paladin took a few concussion hits, but only because on a couple of occasions I didn't penalise the enemy sufficiently for fighting in nearly pitch darkness). I don't resent their success, it was a well-planned assault; they made excellent use of their available spells and abilities, and deserved the win.
I'm amused that the fighter-types are all reminding each other not to get too cocky, as they were only fighting farmers, and I've discovered that the paladin and the goblin rogue have fully absorbed the fact that they could very easily be on the receiving end of the pain in the future. Being who they are, they're both going to be aggressive when the need to fight arises, but they're both also petrified that they're going to get hurt and hurt badly -- an attitude that should ensure they continue to find the combats exciting and a little scary.
This type of thing is the exact reason RM is my favorite rpg. In D&D it would have devolved into an exercise of HP attrition, with the initial "surprise" amounting to very little, when surprise generally means so much more. This idea that you have to take several "hits" in combat for it to be exciting is just plain wrong, imo.
Sounds like you guys had fun, which is always good and I hope it continues.
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Haven't pulled out the Rolemaster game in a while, I have been really hitting the Genesys by FFG hard. Wow is this game something else with the narrative dice system.
Now I just need to merge it with the Rolemaster lethality and it would be perfect.