Author Topic: Shadow World  (Read 2077 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Cpt Tiberius J. Krik

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 152
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Shadow World
« on: May 09, 2022, 05:40:06 PM »
Is there a Shadow World edition for Rolemaster Classic, or is the setting system agnostic (as far as RM is concerned)?

Offline RandalThor

  • Sage
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,116
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Shadow World
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2022, 07:45:01 PM »
The original products had stats for RM2 and Hero system. The newer ones, I believe, have stats for RMC/2 and RMFRP.
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Scratch that. Power attracts the corruptible.

Rules should not replace the brain and thinking.

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Shadow World
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2022, 09:16:27 PM »
Master Atlas editions 1-3 were for RM2. Master Atlas edition IV adds RMSS/FRP stats (but also gives RM2 stats). So pretty much any edition will give RM2 stats, which are reasonably close to Classic stats IIRC.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Cpt Tiberius J. Krik

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 152
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Shadow World
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2022, 02:02:32 AM »
Ok thank you

Offline Cpt Tiberius J. Krik

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 152
  • OIC Points +0/-0

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Shadow World
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2022, 08:43:55 AM »
It has stats for both major editions (RM2 and RMSS/FRP). I believe that means it will work for Classic (which is an update version of RM2).
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Cpt Tiberius J. Krik

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 152
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Shadow World
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2022, 04:09:34 PM »
I've read that in general, Kulthea is high fantasy and that it can be quite dangerous for low level characters (i.e. powerful magics, powerful npcs, etc).

So, what is Jaiman's theme? It's in the north so is it, barbarians, like Scandinavia, 13th century Britain, sword and sorcery, gothic horror? I'm hoping it's a little friendlier to new characters.

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Shadow World
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2022, 06:30:10 PM »
I've read that in general, Kulthea is high fantasy and that it can be quite dangerous for low level characters (i.e. powerful magics, powerful npcs, etc).

So, what is Jaiman's theme? It's in the north so is it, barbarians, like Scandinavia, 13th century Britain, sword and sorcery, gothic horror? I'm hoping it's a little friendlier to new characters.

I'm not sure I can give it a single theme. The Rhakhaan Empire has a late Roman Empire/Medieval England feel to me. Norek and other areas feel like city states, maybe with a slight Venice-vibe. Tanara and Mur Fostisyr are unique: the one a temperate battleground between nord-like Myri, underground-dwelling humans Duranaki, half-elves by the sea coast, and the aggressive zealots the Yinka; the Mur Fostisyr is similarly a battleground between different races, but in the extreme, frozen North. Then you've got many, many areas that have no stable state or are overshadowed by an evil force: the lands of Ulor to the west, the Dragonlord Sulthon Ni'Shaang in the northeast, and the Demon-overrun island city of Aranmor. In fact there are more areas that are dangerous than settled.

In short, there's enough variety for lots of different genres. I would say the theme is diversity. There's not much Gothic horror, though there was an attempt at it with The Orgillion Horror, which you could set in Jaiman easily. The Myri of Tanara have a Scandinavian feel.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline MisterK

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 655
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Shadow World
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2022, 01:01:50 AM »
I'm not sure I can give it a single theme. The Rhakhaan Empire has a late Roman Empire/Medieval England feel to me.
Interesting - from reading Haalkitaine, I had a feeling of post-Renaissance England (I'd say XVIIth century or something). The only roman influence I could see was in the use of the "legion" name to qualify some of the imperial troops. But everything else from political structures to fashion struck me as post-medieval.

To answer the original poster, I think low-level characters can thrive anywhere as long as you keep them in fairly civilised areas - no adventuring in deep wilderness to explore forgotten tombs for them at start. But most cities and towns are safe enough (otherwise there would be ruins, not functional trade hubs). Plus, the characters can get screwed over by political manoeuvering without it being even fatal.

But if you want to have characters in stereotypical "tomb-rob... err, exploring" situations, I'd start with rural locations - Jaiman must be littered with old ruins near actual villages that might hold a bit of mystery, but not anything too serious (otherwise, once again, the nearby villages would have been devastated long ago). And those places never lack poachers, sheep-snatchers and similar rural "adventure hooks".

Offline Cpt Tiberius J. Krik

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 152
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Shadow World
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2022, 03:15:24 AM »
The more I hear the more I like.

Thanks all

Offline Cpt Tiberius J. Krik

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 152
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Shadow World
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2022, 03:19:18 AM »
I think low-level characters can thrive anywhere as long as you keep them in fairly civilised areas - no adventuring in deep wilderness to explore forgotten tombs for them at start.
Do you mean this in relation to published adventures? Or is there something in the canon that prevents me from creating a low-level adventure/campaign that involves deep wilderness and exploring old tombs?

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Shadow World
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2022, 09:53:48 AM »
I'm not sure I can give it a single theme. The Rhakhaan Empire has a late Roman Empire/Medieval England feel to me.
Interesting - from reading Haalkitaine, I had a feeling of post-Renaissance England (I'd say XVIIth century or something). The only roman influence I could see was in the use of the "legion" name to qualify some of the imperial troops. But everything else from political structures to fashion struck me as post-medieval.


The tech is late medieval though (apart from the magic), rather than Renaissance (much less post-Renaissance), and that's usually most important to me. The troops are equipped with medieval weapons like quilted armor, chain shirts, and crossbows rather than muskets and pikes. The sergeants in the Phoenix Guard are literally called 'Centurions'.

Political organization is medieval as well. There's a chapter titled, 'The Peerage and the Parliament of Lords', which date effectively from the 14th century in England. 

I agree that the late medieval England vibe is stronger than the later Roman Empire vibe though.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline MisterK

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 655
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Shadow World
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2022, 12:14:36 PM »
The tech is late medieval though (apart from the magic), rather than Renaissance (much less post-Renaissance), and that's usually most important to me. The troops are equipped with medieval weapons like quilted armor, chain shirts, and crossbows rather than muskets and pikes. The sergeants in the Phoenix Guard are literally called 'Centurions'.
Tech is definitely not late medieval - in Master Atlas, Rhakhaan is listed as TL6 (not even TL5-6, but firmly 6). This is listed as "late renaissance/pre-industrial". There are even printers in Haalkitaine, which is a definite staple of renaissance-level technology.

The issue with military gear being medieval is, in my opinion, only because of the "no firearms" restriction on Kulthea (in order to give it a medieval fantasy feel compatible with Rolemaster rather than a pre-industrial or early industrial feel that would be more consistent with the overextended timeline). But even without firearms, the melee weapon technology has gone towards piercing weapons which make armor less relevant.

Quote
Political organization is medieval as well. There's a chapter titled, 'The Peerage and the Parliament of Lords', which date effectively from the 14th century in England.
Of course, but it lasted far longer than the medieval period, and the Rhakhaan Parliament of Lords has been there for quite a time as well. I mean, if we assume that all countries that have a "parliament of lords" are medieval in standing, then the United Kingdom must be, and I wouldn't go that far... :)

But once again, in rural areas, there is not much difference between medieval and post-renaissance - most of the workforce is still working the fields and there are no significant technological improvements before the industrial age. The main difference is in cities with the rise of the merchant class and in the way knowledge is disseminated and handed with universities and the printing press. I am still convinced that Rhakhaan is firmly out of the medieval period.

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Shadow World
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2022, 02:37:19 PM »
I think the issue here is that I go more by a historian's reckoning of tech than the RPGs. The definitions in the Master Atlas are often vague or questionable. For Tech Level 5, for example, the 'Early Renaissance' age, the defining characteristics are 'more sophisticated' regional governments and 'Art is a powerful force'. What the latter in particular has to do with technology, even apart from the question of when art was not a powerful force, I have no idea. It sounds like whoever came up with that definition knew the Italian Renaissance was noted for its increasing realism and perspective in painting. But of course, the Greeks and Romans had that too, a thousand (or two) years earlier.

The Master Atlas also seems to distinguish its 'Late Renaissance/Pre-Industrial Age' in a way that historians generally do not, and indicates that one of the primary innovations was the printing press. Of course, the printing press was a late medieval invention (c. 1440 in Germany). Universities were also mentioned, but of course they are an even earlier medieval invention (they began in the high Middle Ages).

'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline RandalThor

  • Sage
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,116
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Shadow World
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2022, 08:21:57 PM »
I think the way to look at TL is not when a technology first appeared, but when it became more common and a part of the society. A guy in Germany with a printing press does not change Germany's TL with that first one, he does it when they can be found in every city and even some towns. So, the introduction of a technology is big, but doesn't constitute a shift in TL until it is a common element to be found in many places. (Not all, of course, there are always "backwater" regions.)

I do think that there are more blending of TLs that are presented in most game settings, and Kulthea is no exception. So, if you like, you can use the TL given as the common/mature tech of that society, but that you can find less sophisticated regions and pockets of higher tech here and there. Just use it as a guideline.
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Scratch that. Power attracts the corruptible.

Rules should not replace the brain and thinking.

Offline MisterK

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 655
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Shadow World
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2022, 12:03:37 AM »
I think the issue here is that I go more by a historian's reckoning of tech than the RPGs. The definitions in the Master Atlas are often vague or questionable. For Tech Level 5, for example, the 'Early Renaissance' age, the defining characteristics are 'more sophisticated' regional governments and 'Art is a powerful force'. What the latter in particular has to do with technology, even apart from the question of when art was not a powerful force, I have no idea. It sounds like whoever came up with that definition knew the Italian Renaissance was noted for its increasing realism and perspective in painting. But of course, the Greeks and Romans had that too, a thousand (or two) years earlier.
You are right, of course, but I still stick to my guns (so to speak) :) The description in Haalkitaine is not consistent anyways. But I find it easier to picture Rhakhaan as an early 17th century continental european power and have civilian tech matching that and soldiers using renaissance weaponry (except firearms *grumble*) and support magic (and magic-powered artillery). I leave the late medieval/early renaissance feel to U-Lyshak, and the dark ages feel to Saralis :)
And when they get offensive air power they'll be unstoppable (bwahahaha... :D).

Offline Cpt Tiberius J. Krik

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 152
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Shadow World
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2022, 02:51:25 AM »
I think low-level characters can thrive anywhere as long as you keep them in fairly civilised areas - no adventuring in deep wilderness to explore forgotten tombs for them at start.
Do you mean this in relation to published adventures? Or is there something in the canon that will make it difficult for me to create low-level adventures that involve deep wilderness and exploring old tombs?

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Shadow World
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2022, 09:04:40 AM »
I think low-level characters can thrive anywhere as long as you keep them in fairly civilised areas - no adventuring in deep wilderness to explore forgotten tombs for them at start.
Do you mean this in relation to published adventures? Or is there something in the canon that will make it difficult for me to create low-level adventures that involve deep wilderness and exploring old tombs?

I'm not sure exactly how MisterK meant it, but I think (and agree) that if you use things like random wilderness encounters (which Kulthea has), they can be quite deadly in dangerous areas. It wouldn't be as much of a problem if you don't use Kulthea's random encounters, though there is still some danger inherent in every random table. Also, there are many dangerous powers lurking outside the settled areas, and Kulthea has many, many extremely high powered bad guys.

RandalThor: That's a good point. I think one thing I dislike about the TLs is that they make the Middle Ages, which lasted a thousand years, one TL, while they divide up the 'Renaissance' (which lasted two centuries or less) into two, but then combine the latter part of the renaissance with the rest of the early modern period. Really, I would divide it into Medieval (or maybe early/late medieval); Renaissance; and pre-industrial. It would be cleaner and make more sense.

MisterK: I understand where you're coming from, but I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. For me, gunpowder is a big one, and I don't see as much Renaissance weaponry in Jaiman as you do (Haalkitaine's troops look late medieval with a whiff of late antiquity to me). You make a good point though that there isn't as much late Roman stuff as I had thought.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Cpt Tiberius J. Krik

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 152
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Shadow World
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2022, 05:30:33 AM »
Could someone give me a summary of the differences in tone/theme between Jaiman and Emer? They both sound good but I'm not sure which to get.

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Shadow World
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2022, 08:56:16 AM »
Jaiman is more northerly (the far north is Arctic) and was once a grouping of various kingdoms, most of which are now gone. There is still one relatively stable kingdom left (the Rhakhaan Empire), so that is a good starting spot for characters. Also, more modules were released for Jaiman, so some regions are well documented (e.g Rhakhaan, Tanara, Xa-ar, Norek, Aranmor).

Emer is larger and more southerly and has full-on jungles and desert (together with more temperate regions). It was once a single empire ruled by Titans, but is now a collection of various states, quite a few of which are stable (Sel-Kai, Kaitaine, etc.). Emer is less fleshed out by modules, but also has a bit more thematic variety (e.g. the Japanese-inspired Nuyan Khom, the Mayan/Aztec inspired Lankanok, etc.).
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle