Topic: Old newbie needs help.

[ragr]

Hi all, new to the site and looking for some help, advice and opinion.

I hope you'll forgive me if I'm a little long-winded but I think the advice you can give will be better with a little of my background.

I'm a role-player of 30+ years experience and have been dm'ing a World of Greyhawk campaign using 1e, 2e and then 3e D&D for the past 25 years.  I decided quite early on that 4e was not an option for me and elected instead to use Pathfinder; a very fine system in my view.

However, having spent the last 6 months re-booting and rewriting the campaign to get it back where I want it (I have a penchant for low magic and high grit) I find that Pathfinder isn't necessarily the clean fit I'd hoped it would be so I've looked around for other systems and hit upon Rolemaster as a possible; I've had experience in playing in a Rolemaster game many years ago and, to be totally honest, found it a little bit slow.  I've downloaded the RM express book and I've come to the conclusion that my previous negative experiences were probably down to a GM who worked to the code of "got tables, use tables.  All tables".  I plan to consider using the system for the new campaign, if not for my main group, then maybe for my 12 year old and wanted feedback on how well the system may fit with the setting.  And, by the way, what's likely to work better, Rolemaster Classic or RMFRPG? Didn't know there were two versions.

Any advice is good advice.

Cheers

Ragr 

 

[RandalThor]

Well, just from what you wrote here, I would say Role-Master Classic (RMC) of the 2 choices you mentioned above. But, I would also suggest you look into HARP, I believe it would fit what you want even better. And, as a Greyhawk fan, I would would love to see what you come up with - be it HARP or RMC.

BTW: Welcome to the boards.

[Witchking20k]

I would say use RMX, or take a look at http://www.harphq.com/free_downloads/3000L_HarpLite.pdf
 if you are interested in a more D&D style magic to be available. 

If you want a low-magic hi grit game RMX is perfect.  You can expand on it with the Express Additions for $2/book and ask all the questions you want to get the additions you need.  For example EA 13 provides a set of re-balanced core races that would proabably be more appropriate for Greyhawk particularly when combined with the Cultural Packages from EA 7.  Combined cost $4.

I would use the combat tables from RMX and limit the secondary skills to keep the game tight and fast. 

That my opinion, but if you have any other questions don't hesitate to ask.

[thrud]

If you like RMX I would opt for RMC and strip away any excess material that you feel is unnecessary.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Like the other have suggested, I would also say to go with RMX. If you decide you want more detailed critical tables or larger combat tables, then you can pick up Arms Law.

As others have mentioned, RMX can be expanded towards RMC with the inclusion of various issues of Express Additions. You can see the TOC of each issue here --> http://www.ironcrown.com/index.php?page=igames/RMC/exad

Coming from d20 to RMX, using Greyhawk I would make the following suggestions:

Express Additions #1-4 for the expansion of the professions

Express Additions #7 for the Cultures -  a very nice way to customize the system for the setting!!

Express Addtions #13 - for the Revised Races - they are a little better balances than the core, and each race has racial abilities, so less of a system shock for your players.

Express Additions #14 - cause it gives a slightly more flexible armor system, and has the combat tables for it.

Express Additions #15  - for the Additive stats article

Training Packages and Gifts would also be nice, but it depends on how much detail you want to add overall.

[providence13]

The RM line can definitely work with Greyhawk. We've got 2 groups trying to reclaim the Vesve and Phostwood from the Old One.
So far, Iuz, Wastri and Ehlenestra port real well. I'll need to convert Pholtus soon..

We use RMFRP but those other systems should work great too.

[ragr]

Thanks for the warm welcome and helpful advice, folks.

I've downloaded HARP (thanks for the link) and will get around to reading that soon; in the meantime, what are the basic differences between HARP and RM?  Is it rules or feel?  Strangely, for someone who's been using D&D for such a long time I've always used a lot of house rules when it came to magic, so a different system might be closer to what I use now rather than straight d20.

I think I'll look into RMX first as I've already downloaded it and then maybe add the additions Rasyr suggests (thanks for the list btw).  I'll keep HARP on the backburner just in case.

Providence13; glad to hear that there are people out there using RM for GH.  I had a look on Canonfire in their "alternate systems" forum thread to see if any others were using RM but it was conspicuous by its absence.  Being a little perverse, that made me MORE interested .  Have you encountered any major difficulties with the system/setting meld?

Thanks again,

Ragr

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

HARP is a slightly more cinematic, and definitely a higher magic (i.e. magic is MORE prevalent/accessible) type of game than RMX/RMC. Also, in HARP there is less variation between skill costs (which makes it more like d20 in that respect).

Many of the suggestions I made are or include elements that can be found in HARP, but reworked for RMX.

Using RM for Greyhawk -- Since Greyhawk is a generic fantasy setting, I would think that the biggest change would be the fact that Greyhawk elves are not immortal like RM Elves (and you can EASILY put a house rule into place to fix that).

The only other major consideration is that RM's magic system doesn't require spell components like d20 does, so some situations will require more creative solutions (especially if you are allowing ESF to be used), such as if a spell user is taken prisoner....

[ragr]

Thanks, Rasyr.

Sounds like RMX for me, then.

The spell components thing was always a little token in D&D anyway; "you need to use components to cast spells but, buy this handy bag and you'll never have to mention it again".

I think I might have a slight psychological problem (common to gm's perhaps), because when you mentioned having difficulties taking spell-users prisoner my first thought was "never take 'em alive then".

Ragr

[jolt]

Greyhawk remains one of my favorite generic fantasy settings.  I didn't so much care for the Greyhawk Wars when certain parties at TSR decided they needed to make Greyhawk "more exciting".  When they dropped Greyhawk is when I started on the homebrew that I use to this day.  It's good to see other Greyhawk fans out there.  Welcome to the boards.

jolt

[ragr]

I'm with you there, jolt.

Most of what I've done with the campaign re-write involves undoing, in as logical a way as possible, the events of the GH wars; Scarlet Brotherhood waging a direct war? Bah!!! .  Don't get me started.

Oh! There I go.....

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Personally, while I like Greyhawk, it is a little too civilized for me. I like settings with lots of areas to explore, the more the better. If everything is already known, then what do adventurers do?
 

[jolt]

Personally, while I like Greyhawk, it is a little too civilized for me. I like settings with lots of areas to explore, the more the better. If everything is already known, then what do adventurers do?
 

That's interesting, I never viewed Greyhawk that way.  Though the kingdoms claimed vast amounts of territory when you looked at the populations of those kingdoms, especially in the early sourcebooks, they're quite small.  Some of those kingdoms only had one or two major cities in them.  I imagined it as a few important cities, some unmarked towns and villages, the roads between them, and the rest of the kingdom being, at best, frontier landscape if not outright wilderness.  One thing I found interesting about the early (1E) modules was how they gave multiple possible locations, spread out all over the map, about where the particular dungeon (or whatever) might lay.  I got the feeling that outside of their towns and villages the people of Greyhawk had little knowledge of the world around them and most forests and mountains were scary places where "here there be monsters" unless it was a known refuge for Elves and/or Dwarves.  There were so many places in Greyhawk to tuck things away in.


Now, things get a bit sticky with Greyhawk Wars and what came after where suddenly kingdoms had standing armies larger than the previoulsy published population of the entire nation. 

ragr, you mean things like killing off half the circle of Eight (along with numerous other iconics) or that Iuz, despite being only a single demigod, was able to start a war that somehow none of the other deities were able to influence in any way or deciding that out of the blue Mordenkainen suffers from male pattern baldness et. al.?

jolt

[ragr]

I agree with jolt's assessment of Greyhawk but can also see where you're coming from Rasyr.  It is very civilised in that there are many established nations but the population density, even after they tweaked the figures upwards in later versions, is very low and most nation's control of their lands is limited by very small armed forces.

I find that my main gaming group, having played in the setting for 25+ years, have a very good idea of the many regions of the Flanaess and for them the campaign is more about adventuring on the human(oid) scale; plenty of political intriques, double crosses etc rather than pure exploration.

Recently though, I've introduced my 12 year old to the campaign and set his home village (what are the odds) in the Cairn Hills overlooking the Nyr Dyv midway between Greyhawk and Urnst.  I've been using one of Anna Bernemalms's fantastic maps of the Flanaess and once you get those beauties down to 5 miles to an inch or so the whole area becomes one incredible wasteland devoid of human features and just waiting to be explored.  In truth I thought that there was little I didn't know about the Flanaess but those maps totally changed my perception and reinvigorated my love of the setting.

Once you get to the big cities there's plenty of cartographers with maps and libraries with depositories of lore but I'm going to do my best to keep my son's group in the wilds for as long as possible.

As for your last paragraph, Jolt, that's worth a laugh point for sure.

[ragr]

Had a good look through RMX and I'm going to give it a try with son's group acting as guinea pigs when we next play in a couple of weeks or so.

Not too sure whether I'll get to use it with my main group as they've all purchased the Pathfinder Hardback, Hero Lab (for easy reference) and have converted their characters; can you imagine the response if I say "right, new system"?

Anyway, thanks for the response guys and if anybody has anything to add please do.

I'm still chuckling at the concept of Mordenkainen having male pattern baldness and not yet developing "Mordenkainen's Hirsute Recovery" spell.

[Right Wing Wacko]

Personally, while I like Greyhawk, it is a little too civilized for me. I like settings with lots of areas to explore, the more the better. If everything is already known, then what do adventurers do?
 

I agree 100%.
This absolutely mirrors my thinking...

[yammahoper]

On Greyhawk; ever travel through Wyoming?  Its a state, with fully realized borders and technically, civilized, but you could roam it for years without coming near a full exploration of it. 

That's Greyhawk.

[providence13]

I have a penchant for low magic and high grit

The magic system as is might just work fine for your group. Low magic is definitely safer for PC's in RM.

The spell components thing was always a little token in D&D anyway; "you need to use components to cast spells but, buy this handy bag and you'll never have to mention it again".
Actually, there are some pretty good rules for this in RM Essence Companion, but my players don't use them.. 

Have you encountered any major difficulties with the system/setting meld?

Races and Adolescence skills were a little work, but not hard. I found it intriguing that kobolds in RM are smaller than halflings but don't have as severe Strength penalties.. so I changed some +/- around for most of the races, to have them more in line with GH.
I had to alter the spell system a little, again just to keep everything similar, but the players really dig it because they can actually cast the spells they know, but their power points are limited. "Do you cast that one big spell or all those lower level spells?" That is similar to GH.

The most work for me was Channeling. Clerics, Priests, Paladins, Knights of Veluna, Highforest, Furyondy (Hart), Rangers... yeah, Channeling took the most work.
Creatures aren't bad at all; most are in RM already!

The biggest difference is combat! D&D PC's have the hit points of a small European country.
RM PC's know that hits don't really matter. At all. Most fighters can heal their hits over night.
Criticals are the touchstone by which combat is judged. You may have to tone down combat from what you were used to in D&D. Or just roll up lots of back up characters.

I can pm you any info I have. But it sounds like you've a good handle on your game and how you want it to run. Cheers!

[ragr]

I'm from England so I'm not familiar with Wyoming but I think that's exactly what Gygax was going for when he designed Greyhawk; topographically and geographically Greyhawk is almost entirely North America with the european influence being cultural.  It's always worked for me and, as I said previously, once you get some of the maps down to small scale there are vast swathes of wilderness.

I can pm you any info I have. But it sounds like you've a good handle on your game and how you want it to run. Cheers!

Thanks, providence, that would actually be useful in helping me to see how the changes might work so if you want to pm me something you think would be interesting that'd be great.

[ragr]

Another question, guys.

How important (or not) are minis to use in action situations for RM?  Does the action run okay without them or are they essential?  I'm trying to get away from using minis as recent games have become bogged down with tactical manouevers which is okay if you're wargaming but not for frp's.
Pathfiner and 3.0/3.5 is pretty much built around mini use with frequent mention of "squares" in terminology.