Topic: Spell problem -- any solutions?

[dutch206]

I have a problem I am hoping someone can solve for me.  All three realms of magic have a relatively low-level spell which is capable of detecting 'evil'. (See definition below)  I want to create an item which is capable of returning a false answer to this spell. (ring, amulet, headband, whatever....)

The problem I have is that no spell in any realm seems to fit the bill.  None of the 'misfeel' spells seems to cover moral outlook.

Note:  For purposes of this discussion, these definitions apply:

Good:  Generally concerned for the welfare and safety of others. Opposed to "evil" behavior.

Evil:  Cruel, domineering, belligerent, hostile. 

[yammahoper]

I'd go with a spell mastered misfeel.

[Nejira]

Had the same problem back when I played DnD. It wasn?t as much of a problem in a dungeon scenario but in a scenario with intrique its a bit drama killer spell. The solution I used back then was to redefine what the spell detected. It didn?t detect your alignment but rather your intent towards the spell-caster. Today I just don?t play with alignments nor predefined and/or measurable levels of Good and Evil, it just ruined too many adventures for me to keep playing with it.

Now if I wanted to keep the detect spells and wanted an  similar spell/item to cloak intentions and we don?t (re)define evil in any way, I would just say it?s an equal or lesser level spell. Of what spelllists I really don?t know. Maybe just create an item which gives a wrong answer to the detect spell, that would be the easy solution.

[dutch206]

It definitely has the feeling of a misfeel spell to me.  Although I suppose that any spell which offered an RR vs. spells would work.  Maybe everyone wears amulets that offer RR bonuses as a way to protect against scrying/information gathering.....

[Marc R]

You looking for an RMC or RMFRP answer?

[markc]

 I thought there was a profession in the Channeling Companion that was able to do this. I will check later when I have my books at hand.

 Also IMO it may depend on how the spell works and just what does it detect. As it was pointed out earlier some low level spells can give a lot of info and become very powerful as your game style differers from hack and slash. [I think I hear Rasyr typing "The rules were written back in XX and gaming has progressed considerably since then so you may have to adjust how the spells work or at least try and understand the times and environment they were written in." And by no means do I mean to put typed words to page for Rasyr.]

 I have detect evil work more like detect enemy or detect opposing views from myself or deity. Also some have the detect spells detect intent at the moment, so the person would have to be thinking "evil" thoughts at the moment of the detection spell was cast.

 As Lord Miller typed above if you could provide a rule system it might help. Also the RMC Spell Law was reworked or at least had some new thoughts put into it to help with these types of problems.

MDC

[pastaav]

In my game I have the Detect Evil work by detecting corruption. The trick to make it work is that the spell will not reveal the reasons for the corruption. A character with an evil curse will detect as evil. Likewise a spell user who is trigger happy will probably have used enough spells in questionable circumstances to have enough corruption to detect as evil.

The point is of course that the spell remains a good general detection spell to verify that supposed paladins and similar seem to be the real thing, but the players can never rely on the spell alone to detect the enemy of the adventure.

[thrud]

Yeah, a misfeel spell should do the trick.
Otoh it would be more fun with som sort of reflection spell, i.e. the detection spell is turned back on the caster (he detects his own alignment). This would be more of a multipurpose item since it would protect against all sorts of mischief.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

One possible solution for fooling a Detect Evil spell would be Presence Mirage off the Illusionist Base List, Mind Sense Molding. It creates a false presence for the purpose of detection spells. Perhaps couple this with a spell that prevents detection of a person's details to hide the real one.

I also agree that Misfeel is another good option (and I am referring to the spell "Misfeel", not spells like "Misfeel Kind" or "Misfeel Power", but as mentioned above it would definitely need to be spell mastered to fit the bill.

Of course, you could always use the spell creation rules to create a new spell that does this...

[dutch206]

Solution needed for RMC, but I will take answers from anywhere.  I may end up creating some kind of 'protection from scrying' effect.  That would benefit everyone, not just my bad guys.

[Dark Schneider]

I think in mentalism there are spells to change your profession, level and other things, look for them and create your own spell, and then insert it into an item.

It is a combination of spell research + alchemy.

[Marc R]

For RMC

Create the item as a bonus item.

Either as

a +X to RRs vs informational spells.

or

a +X to RRs vs detect evil spells.

That will make the wearer rather difficult to perceive. . .the first variation would become obvious, as casters would keep getting a blind spot around the wearer, but the latter would be more subtle. . .since "Detect Evil" is a binary function spell, merely indicating evil when found, and not doing anything when it doesn't find anything, it's failing would not necissarily tip off the caster that the target is shielded. . .they just wouldn't detect as evil without a really successful casting and/or really poorly rolled RR.

Just a note though, you need to make the roll by 50+ to avoid detection. . .so you need to make the bonus rather beefy.

Now, the embedding general gives +5 per tier. . .but creating a +5 vs channeling item, or a +5 vs Informational spells item, is a lot more useful than +5 vs detect evil. . .this is akin to enchanting an item for skill, if it was "Gloves +5 climbing" vs "Gloves +5 for climbing ropes" is another example. . .I often allow as a house rule that making the bonus limited can multiply the scale of the bonus allowed. . .i.e. a General I spell might enchant "Gloves of Climbing +5" but also "Gloves of Rope Climbing +10" . . .by that same logic considering how "Detect Evil" is a tiny subset compared to "Channeling" or "Informational spells" I might allow that bonus to be multiplied x3 or x4 even. . .I'd need to consider that in context of the game. . .

But doing it that way, depending on how large a muliplier you choose to allow, you can get a nice beefy bonus vs "Detect Evil" out of a reasonably castable spell without having to make the thing an artifact.

[Mungo]

In our world evil detects alignment, but alignment itself is not punishable, i.e. there are many people who are "evil" but who have never done something outside the law.

So my good Paladin had to travel with some evil people, in their case he even suspected that they were up to no good, but couldn't do anything about it because he had no proof and any action would have made him a murderer (at least any sensible action :-)).

So a detect evil spell detects many sources, especially in an environment like a palace or city, but the information you get is not necessarily useful.

BR Juergen

[markc]

 I am sorry I got tied up last night and did not get to check the source I was thinking about. [I was watching Sci-Fi channels Dune parts 2 and 3] I will look later if I get a chance before I go to my game tonight or after my game in the am.

MDC

[markc]

 I found the spell I was thinking of it is in The Channeling Companion page 80, Mythic Base Spell List, The Mask, Rank 8 spell Divine Secrecy.
 The spell should do everything you need and you might make it available to other professions in pace of another spell or placed in a spell slot that is empty. [I think most of the spell slots in RMC Spell Law are filled so I might make the caster pay an set amount of DP to gain access to the spell.]

MDC

[dutch206]

Actually, I spent several hours book-flipping myself today.  I found my answer in "Castles and Ruins" on the Perimiter Wardings spell list.  I have posted this new item on the vault for others to use.  It should be available shortly.

[rdanhenry]

I think Detect Evil/Good spells are more powerful in a hack and slash game (whether a dungeon crawl or not) than an intrigue scenario. There's no reason to assume that the traitor to the throne is the cruel Minister of Punishments, rather than the perhaps-too-idealistic Court Astrologer or the greedy Chancellor Innocence. The murderer may be a fiend at heart or someone seeking justice outside the law. It is only when the logic of Detect, "He's Evil!", kill without consequence applies that Detect Evil solves any but the simplest questions (you probably want to pass on the job applicant who detects as evil -- or reject the one that doesn't if you're looking for someone to cast from a Evil spell list).

If a Misfeel Evil spell is required, it could be added in several places, but in Evil spell lists would be the most logical place. I'd put it in Dark Channels and one of the Evil Mentalism lists. (It doesn't really seem very in-theme for Essence, outside of maybe an Illusionist base list).

[thrud]

Yeah, +1 rdanhenry.
Just because you're evil doesnt mean you're out killing indiscriminantly for fun.
You can still be a valued member of society even though you're evil. The only real difference is moivations and how far you are prepared to go to achieve your goals. Otoh there are evil covards as well and in those cases the only difference is motivation...

Then there is the definition of evil of course. What is evil? Really? Killing a few people? Torture, maming, ...?
How many of you big strapping adventurers can claim to have a clean conscience? Just yesterday you were hacking away at bunch of goblins. They have families too you know.
And don't forget that taxcollector... Yes, I agree he had it comming but still it wasn't a nice thing to do. 

[mibsweden]

Such a spell would fit nicely somewhere around 6th-9th level on the Mystic base spell list Mystical Change. It does not exist there at the moment but could be researched.

After that it is only a matter of using the appropriate "Work" spell from either Inorganic Skills or Organic Skills spell lists for the creation of the item. Then the appropriate spell from Mentalism/Channelling Imbedding and if you want the item to be possible to use without any Staves & Wands/Attunement roll, the appropriate spell from the Enchanting Ways list. All of them Alchemist base spell lists.

[jdale]

You could also redefine Detect Evil as not detecting a particular outlook, but rather detecting corruption by evil beings (e.g. contact with demons) and use of evil spell lists. Under that definition, it's still useful, but more definitive. Some people who are evil (e.g. malicious, murderous, etc) won't detect as evil. Flip side, a person who is basically good but who has been carrying around an evil artifact might detect as evil, which also provides an interesting story twist.