Topic: Changing Professions in Rolemaster (any version)

[thrud]

Profession change have never really been an issue for me or my group.
But imagine if you allow the change. Just toying with an idea here...
How about starting everyone off as No-profession profession? And then allow the change when the players are starting to get to know their characters?
This way you could make the change "in game" and have the pc's search for a master to teach them the "secrets". Have them go through different initiation rites/tests to prove themselves worthy and so on. Maybe they have to complete a quest before the master deems the pc worthy?

Or you can allow some to have a profession early? Maybe they were apprenticed as a child? Maybe they were raised byt the church? Anyway it could add some flavor to the game. Just an idea...

[markc]

thurd;
 I have heard someone here on the forums talk about doing this and I think it was yammahopper.  IMO yes you can do it you just have to keep good records to make sure everything jives. Or you can just have the GM keep the official record and prevent problems before they start. IMO I would have 1 set of sheets for the layman period and another for when and if they decide on a profession. But if you do this this locks you into the idea that "professions" are jobs and not genetic dispositions.
 Another way is to roll randomly for your profession and then try and find out what it is but trying lots of jobs. Or maybe you could do a  mini-apprentice camp where PC's spend 3-6 months doing each of magic, "fighter" and stealth to see what thier PC is good at. This would also give the players a good set of adventuring skills as well as 1 or more spell lists each.
[A side note I also have all PC's and NPC's have at least 1 rank in PPD and MPD so everyone has power points as well as mind points from the get go. This makes it easier if you consider worshipers channeling thier power to thier deities.]

 Also average people in my game are 3rd to 7th or 8th level. This can take some getting used to for players as they are not the kings of the hill as they are in other games. I tend to start the PC's off at 3rd to 5th which is the lower end of the range for average.

MDC

[pastaav]

I think the number of Layman/no profession people is proportional to what kind of society we are speaking about. Modern society with close to perfect health care would make Layman's easily be around 90% of the population. Change this to fantasy setting with loads of dangers around and from time to time harsh conditions like famine and a large number of Layman people will die off because they did not have the needed edge.

[markc]

I think the number of Layman/no profession people is proportional to what kind of society we are speaking about. Modern society with close to perfect health care would make Layman's easily be around 90% of the population. Change this to fantasy setting with loads of dangers around and from time to time harsh conditions like famine and a large number of Layman people will die off because they did not have the needed edge.

 I agree until you get a large enough population to allow for more people to move away from combat-survival to then have large numbers of laymen. IMO every culture may experience this state at different times depending on many factors.

MDC

[Skarsgard]

As a "profession" reflects the training instilled on a person then the numbers of certain types of classes will vary on society.

In line with the OP's question, this would allow people to "retrain" over a suitable period of time (this depends largely on how much "free time" a character will have in their day to day life). Generally, this should be handled out of game. It would be nigh on impossible to become a Sorcerer whilst actively adventuring as a Fighter, simply due to the fact you have no time to do it.

[Ecthelion]

As a "profession" reflects the training instilled on a person then the numbers of certain types of classes will vary on society.

This is where I disagree. The RM approach is that a profession reflects the aptitudes that the character gained during childhood and perhaps his youth. Therefore the profession cannot be changed.

[jolt]

As a "profession" reflects the training instilled on a person then the numbers of certain types of classes will vary on society.

This is where I disagree. The RM approach is that a profession reflects the aptitudes that the character gained during childhood and perhaps his youth. Therefore the profession cannot be changed.

I agree.  Most of the Training Packages are more akin to what we typically think of as a job/profession than the actual Professions are.  Perhaps Profession was a poor word choice (though I have no problem with it) but in RM it means apptitude.  If you want a job, take a TP (and being a mom's a full-time job!  ).

jolt

[Skarsgard]

Quote from rulebook, emphasis mine.

A characters profession reflects the fact that early training and apprenticeship have a molded his thought patterns.

I agree with most of what you guys have said.

But....
In our group we feel this allows people to be retrained and that is the way we play it. It gives the OP another option.

[rdanhenry]

If Profession is determined by culture, the most primitive groups will be almost all Laymen/No Profession, with an Animist or Shaman or the like as the rare exception. You have to advance to agricultural surpluses before anyone can afford to specialize as a Fighter. Survival is largely *not* about combat until people make it so. It is about finding food, water, shelter, and - in the longer term of survival of your line, rather than individually - mates.

In a world where magic worked, the healing specialists would be viable early Professions.

The more advanced the culture became, the more specialized and esoteric Professions would become available and the larger the portion of the population that could actually develop the skills characteristic of those Professions.

If one assume Professions are innate, then it really won't change that much over time, you'll just have different mismatches of talent to actual development. Like real people, they'll often be doing that for which they are not best suited by nature.

[giulio.trimarco]

I know that I could be killed by many of you... but here it is an idea (perhaps someone else has already thinked about this):

Basics: I've borrowed some concepts from D&D 3.x  (now you can kill me...)

1) Every profession will have a separete level count

2) The overall level will be based on the sum of the level of every profession. So the XP needed to advance a level will be based on the overall level. Ex. 3rd Fighter + 2nd Ranger  = 5th Level character (I know, the example wasn't needed  :'()

3) Since in RM the profession is a mind set and not a "work", some limitation can be imposed to the chioces of the player: for example to switch from the realms of Arms to a Pure Spell user, the PC must pass through a Semi-Spell user of the appropriate realm. To swtich from a Arms Realm to a Hybrid, you must do: Arms -> Semi -> Pure -> Hybrid. At least 3 level must be done. This step is optional and to GM discretion.

4) If step three isn't used an "XP Price" can be enforced. An XP price equal to XPs necessary to rise one or two level could be requested. Once the PC has accumulated such amount (that can't be used to rise in level, of course) he will be allowed to change profession.

The only drowback I see, in general, to changing profession in RM, is the bookkeeping needed.

[thrud]

giulio.trimarco>It's already been done. Look at the famous characters from MERP. There are three books with just famous people... MERP although a game of it's own was often played usng RM rules and Middle earth setting. (Back in the old days)
There are suggestions found in various companions as well although I can't remeber exactly where?
It's been fairly frequently discussed here on this bord as well so it shouldn't be to hard to find some old disussions as well.

The official view is that the professions are archtypes that cannot be changed. (There are no official rules explaining how to change professions either.)
There is anoher view however and the followers like to think of professions as "jobs" or mindsets that can be retrained or changed.

Personally I see nothing wrong with either view. The first view is a lite stiff and boring to me but it's never posed any real problems. Most of the time people aren't very interested in changing professions...

I really don't think there will be much problems with allowing profession changes. It will be different for sure but as long as every one are treated equally there should be no problems.

Some will voice the opinon that everyone will start as figheter or thief and then change to some magic profession. I don't know about that? You'll never be as good at your new profession as one that's dedicated his/her entire life to it. Sure there will be differences in OB and some other skills but I don't think it'll break the game.

Mostly it's just a question of personal taste. Pick your flavour and run with it. As long as everyone is in on it you'll have fun.

[giulio.trimarco]

Ahhh... I've changed to my REAL name 


So, Thrud, I really think as you do.

Changing professio ins't great fun, really.

[Ecthelion]

I know that I could be killed by many of you... but here it is an idea (perhaps someone else has already thinked about this):

I usually don't kill others for offering an idea  .

The only drowback I see, in general, to changing profession in RM, is the bookkeeping needed.

There is more: It offers room for abuse. E.g. if I play a Thief and I'd like to use Adrenal Defense I can simply develop a few levels as a Warrior Monk to develop my AD skill to 10 ranks or so. I can even continue to develop my Subterfuge skills, though at a reduced rate. Or if I play a Ranger I could spend a few levels to learn my favourite Paladin spells. How to avoid such abuse and retain the good balancing, which RMC, RMSS and RMFRP IMHO have, can be quite important depending on the group. There might be a munchkin in everyone... 

[thrud]

Ecthelion> What level do you usually run your campaigns at?
I think the views might differ somewhat depending on the powerlevel of the game. At the moment we're att lv 7 and I've never been above 10th level myself.
Taking 5 levels as a warrior monk doesn't seam quite that simple to me.

[Arioch]

Ecthelion> What level do you usually run your campaigns at?
I think the views might differ somewhat depending on the powerlevel of the game. At the moment we're att lv 7 and I've never been above 10th level myself.
Taking 5 levels as a warrior monk doesn't seam quite that simple to me.

Think of what your character would be in 7 levels if you could change profession each time you gained a level.
An example:
- you start at first level as a mystic, which gives a nice selection of lists and decent subterfuge abilities
- at second level you become a warrior monk,pumping up you DB with Adrenal Defense, gaining some HPs and martial skills, putting other ranks in stealth
- then maybe another mystic level
- then a thief level or two to pump you stealth (in which you're aided by all your mystic spells) and put ranks in ambush
- then another warrior monk level

So you have a PC with high DB, nice OB, spells, high stealth, etc... Compared to characters of your same level which didn't change profession you'll be much more powerful.

Basics: I've borrowed some concepts from D&D 3.x  (now you can kill me...)

And this should have made you think twice before borrowing those concepts: third edition forums are full of discussions on how to build nearly unstoppable characters by combining different classes and talents... Multiclassing is one of the most unbalancing feature of that edition of d&d.

[providence13]

This isn't exactly changing professions... I guess I don't like the idea. As already stated, ICA it's a carryover from another game.

But I was thinking of allowing the cost of skills/cats to be bought down with Background Options.
You still can't get more skills than the game allows; 1-3 ranks.
It would allow easier progression, not faster.
A Magician has 20 for Weapon#2. Use 1 BO and buy that down to 9 for Weapon#2.

MAC allows Training Packages to be purchased at 1/2 cost with 1 BO...
If a Fighter had Amateur Mage TP, they wouldn't be a Mage....but then they could use 1BO for reducing PP Dev. Just reduce it to the next comparable level. You would never get down to 4! But from 20-30 (?) to 15-12 is still a big help.

I like the idea of Professions as genetic ability/Fates/Gods etc....
Or no Professions at all. Mwaaahahah!!!

[providence13]

Read Order Of The Stick comic! This is an ongoing joke of another game..

"I've taken 2 lvls of bard for the charisma bonus, one lvl of mage for better magic item use and a lvl of paladin to get the church discount on raise dead"

Your game is your fun! But I don't want to see RM turn into this.
Heck, that game was looking more like RM in malleability; now it's just silly...

[thrud]

Arioch> That is of course taking it to the extreme. Why does everything have to be black or white?
I don't think anyone here is suggesting that the pc's change profession with each and every level. Once or maybe twice in a lifetime on the other hand might still work?
It's the job of the GM to deal with munchkins.
GM always have a Veto.
Nothing happens without the GM's consent.

[Arioch]

Arioch> That is of course taking it to the extreme. Why does everything have to be black or white?

Because extreme examples help understanding what are the consequences of a rule change on the long term.

Once or maybe twice in a lifetime on the other hand might still work?

No, IMHO it would still be unbalancing. Maybe not as much as changing profession each other level, but still unbalancing.

It's the job of the GM to deal with munchkins.
GM always have a Veto.
Nothing happens without the GM's consent.

This is why as a GM I would not permit a similar rule 

[Ecthelion]

Ecthelion> What level do you usually run your campaigns at?
I think the views might differ somewhat depending on the powerlevel of the game. At the moment we're att lv 7 and I've never been above 10th level myself.

We usually play up to 15th level and then put our characters to rest and start new ones.

Taking 5 levels as a warrior monk doesn't seam quite that simple to me.

Then take the other example. Or an Illusionist who spends two levels as a Magician to gain access to the Firebolt. Arioch also gave a nice example for abusing such the rule.