Topic: RR and level

[markc]

LM,
 In the real world they report leathal dose 50 numbers. That represents the amount in which 1/2 of the animals or test subjects die. So IMO I think a leathal does would be twice as strong even though that would not equate to 100% chane of death.

MDC 

[Marc R]

true, but if 200mg of sodium cyanide is a "Lethal Dose" and they strap you to a chair in a 250 cubic foot room, then fill the room with poison gas. . .how many doses are you exposed to?

The Markov case, with the ricin pellet injected from an umbrella. The dose was estimated at 500mg. . .the lethal dose of ricin for a 150# man is .066mg. . . .so he was injected with 7,500 "doses" of Ricin. . .low odds on making 7,500 RRs even if you're 100th level and the poison is 1st level.

Most instances of poisoning would be partial lethal doses (you get sick, almost no chance of dying unless you're already weak or in a bad spot to be sick.) or mega doses (and you die).

I dunno how much "fun" that would be, except in a very hardcore, lethal-danger campaign.

[Phil]

I think the issue is that, despite what people say about RM being a "realistic" game, at heart it isn't realistic in a real world sense. As such, there are a number of potential variants for RRs depending on whether you want real life real, cinematic real, fantasy world real etc.

Fantasy world "real" it's entirely appropriate for RRs to vary by level. I agree with the post above that I don't see the need for an alternative mechanic when you've got skills / DPs, but the principle is sound.

If you want real world "real", then I agree with the poster than poison is probably more likely to accumulate and resistance is probably Con alone (and even then, that's probably not truly realistic, because Con covers such a multitude of traits) while disease resistence is probably a factor of Con + number of previous infections! Magic doesn't exist in real life though, so you're always free to make any assumptions you like.

For me personally I would normally go with DP-based RR skill on the basis that higher level (or equivalent if using levelless) have the potentially to be mentally stronger - and if you have an issue with how this is developed, you could limit skill development only to those skills actively used in an adventure, a la runequest. However, I'd never previously considered the thought that maybe the difference in magic levels is the effects you can cause not how potent the spell is. So I'd now consider implementing a system where "penetration" (to use an ArsM term) can be boosted by the caster, but non-magical resistance is effectively static. Thanks for the ideas!

[Ynglaur]

For poisons and disease, I kind of like the idea of just having a Level 1 defense against them, barring some odd mundane (a Talent?) or magical (a spell?) enhancer.  Poisons should be fairly rare, and generally expensive, and doing this *definitely* makes them more dangerous.  I also liked the idea of using Body Development ranks to reflect general healthiness.  That'll basically equate to level for a long time (or even a little more), but at least in RMSS everyone maxes at some point.

For magic, I'm torn.  I don't exactly want a level 1 mage over-casting a bit and blowing legions of steely-eyed flat-bellied killers into oblivion, but neither do I want a mage's ever action foiled simply because a figher has managed to reach a certain level of experience.  I rather like the RMSS Awareness skill progression for this sort of thing.  Slow, deliberate, and stats weigh far more heavily.  Again, I like the Power Point Dev skill rank idea, as well as Power Awareness.

From a game perspective, you don't want any skill to be "essential".  If it is, then you might as well hand it out and reduce everyone's DPs accordingly.  Body Development is almost this bad already.

[giulio.trimarco]

I posted awhile back about characters level vrs poison. Now I started to wonder why a PC should have a level vrs a spell. What are your thoughts. I do think that RR modifiers from stats and race should apply but why should level effect RR. Just a thought.

Many system in witch magic is subtle and powerful, attain this removing any type of resistance by the "normal" peoples.
This mean that a "non spellcaster" , whatever it's skill, is a sitting duck against magic.

This, to me, is very effective in balancing magic.
Very simple spells have a excellent chance of success and put some rightful fear in a spell caster's opponents.

Short answer:
RR based level is a game mechanics to balance something that should be balanced in other ways (revising spells?).

[yammahoper]

I use stat mods as base level of resistance.  +4Co mod means resist as level 4 for poison, disease, etc.

[rdanhenry]

From a game perspective, you don't want any skill to be "essential".  If it is, then you might as well hand it out and reduce everyone's DPs accordingly.

I agree. Indeed, I argued sufficiently strenuously for this principle to get level-based saving throws returned to a skills-centric computer game. I would say that this is the policy that Rolemaster design already follows. And in any but a so-rare-it-might-not-exist magic world, building RR skills would be a no-brainer.

You'd also seriously complicate things on the monster side, as removing level based resistances would mean a lot that gets summed up as "level" now has to be reworked.

[Arioch]

Many system in witch magic is subtle and powerful, attain this removing any type of resistance by the "normal" peoples.
This mean that a "non spellcaster" , whatever it's skill, is a sitting duck against magic.

This, to me, is very effective in balancing magic.

  Balancing? Making all spells impossible to resist would make the game balanced? Now, that would be a real magic trick! 

[giulio.trimarco]

Not "impossible", only difficult to a rationale.

In addition a sleep spell will work, on the green recruit and on the dark knight ultraskilled.
You don't need the spell  "I'm the Winner" to be powerful.

A mage can influence many peoples with simple, very simple spells. This create a world in witch magic "is not seen", but people fear it.

[yammahoper]

Many system in witch magic is subtle and powerful, attain this removing any type of resistance by the "normal" peoples.
This mean that a "non spellcaster" , whatever it's skill, is a sitting duck against magic.

This, to me, is very effective in balancing magic.

  Balancing? Making all spells impossible to resist would make the game balanced? Now, that would be a real magic trick! 

I have ran games were magic was impossible to resist without charms or other such devices.  It worked very well.  Best part, a PC could be protected from sleep at lvl 15 rr with one charm and suggestion at level 8rr with another charm.  Additionally, certain blanket charms were available, like +15rr versus mental spells, or that convieghed lvl20 rr versus all mental attacks.  The charms varied greatly in level or rr or resistance provided, shape and form.  Lvl 20 was the highest rr charm I allowed.  I used Alchemist General Enchantments to figure out how much skill was required to make a charm (General Enchantment I allowed charms from 1-5th level, General Enchantment II 6th to 10th level, etc).  To translate this into a useable skill to make charms, I declared twice the level of the spells were required as ranks in the skill to make the higher level charms.  So if generla Enchantment I is level 4, then once a PC had 8 ranks in the Make Charm skill, he could make +5 charms.  In time, we stretched out the rule into a table.  Basically, at 8 ranks in the skill the N/PC could make +1 charms (i.e. confers a lvl 1rr versus some attack).  at 11 ranks +2, etc.  This went up to 100 ranks, were +20 could be made.  This may seem high, but don't forget that EV skills can gain 4 ranks a level, and OCC skills 6 ranks a level, meaning at level 15-17, the skill could be attained (at level 8-12 if training rules are allowed to gain ranks instead of dev points).

It worked.  Magic was feared, but the power of magic never destroyed the game.

BTW, if you opt to use charms, give em some personality.  Bound spirits, charms that move or light up when attacked, even charms that shatter after stopping a spell.  The charms that break after stopping an attack are great to make as ALWAYS stopping the first appropriate attack and then breaking.  I called them spirit charms and they were made by binding a spirit to an object (that was then worn or carried).  The spirit was destroyed as it sacrificed itself to stop the attack.  This was considered a henious form of the craft.  Anyway, LOTS of options on how to deal with rr's. 

I always liked the logic of magic being something that could not be resisted without great will or a charm.