Topic: How much freedom do you give players to choose spells for their characters?

[Druss_the_Legend]

Interested to hear what other GMs do when it comes to spell selections and spell lists for their players.

1. Do you use all the spell companions or just a selct number?
2. Does the GM choose the lists or do they have freedom to make their own choice for spell lists?
3. Do you have any house rules you have created for your campaign around Spell List learning?

[MisterK]

1. My reference ruleset for magic is RMSS/FRP. I use Spell Law, plus Mentalism/Essence/Channeling/Treasure Co in free access. I don't use Arcane Companion. I control access to Elemental Co, as well as to all the companions of the RM2 line and the RMU beta Spell Law and Treasure Law. In this campaign, I have used one list from RMU beta Spell Law, one list from RM2 RoCo1, one list from RM2 AlchemyCo, one list from RM2 RoCo5, one list from RMFRP ElemCo, and the others from the RMSS/FRP Spell Law and magic Companions. I have two Semi Users, one Hybrid user, and one Pure User.

2. The players choose the list, subject to GM comment and ultimate veto if I really don't agree with something. They usually tell me what kind of character they want to play, then we agree on a professsion, and then they choose the spell lists and I review their picks.

3. Base Lists are only indicative. If someone wants to take lists from other professions or other companions as base lists because it fits their concept better, they can, within the limits of point 2 above. Basically, players can assemble any set of base lists as long as it makes sense to them and to me and I don't find it overpowered.
I also took a leaf from RMU and made developing Open Lists the same cost as Base Lists. On the other hand, Closed Lists cost significantly more, which means that if people really want to develop some Closed Lists, they take them as Base (otherwise, the DP drain becomes painful).
They can only develop 2 ranks per list per level (cost is typically x/y, except for non spell users for which it is simply x). On the other hand, they can develop as many lists as they want in  a single development, provided they have the DPs, of course. Since y is typically equal to 2x, there is an incentive to develop width-first instead of depth-first.
Spell Lists development costs are reduced for Semi Users, and significantly reduced for Non Users.

All spell-casting requires one roll only: the list skill bonus is used to cast the spell, except for directed attacks where the appropriate DS skill bonus is used instead. For non-directed attacks, target RR comes as a modifier to casting roll.
Since I use player-facing rolls, if a NPC casts a spell on a PC, the NPC does not roll for spell casting. Instead, the PC rolls resistance (same idea for directed spells : the PC rolls defence).

[Druss_the_Legend]

"Basically, players can assemble any set of base lists as long as it makes sense to them and to me and I don't find it overpowered".

100% this^^

I have had to reign in a player recently as he was pulling spell lists from companions online i hadnt seen.
As GM i was being hit with endless requests for various spell lists (some were outside what i deemed suitable for my campaign). As long as you as GM has final veto rights things should stay balanced. I have a player in my group who is a real rules lawyer as in he thinks if its in the rules its ok to use it but i always hit him with the play balance hammer which keeps his dreams and wishes in check when needed.

My campaign and rules has evolved over time (like most campaigns i imagine) but two players have been playing the same characters for 35+ years (like few campaigns i imagine) so this has meant ive needed to move the gola posts (rules/spell lists we play by) a number of times. In an ideal setup, I'd spell out at the start to all players what spell lists/spell companions we were using to avoid conflict over expectations. IN the early days by campaign did not have any spell user player characters at all and the few we tried died quickly so they were avoided as professions (sad i know but this was back in the 80-90s when i was building my campaign world).

[Druss_the_Legend]

Big lessons learned and some issues unavoidable due to the nature of my campaign changing around the same PCs exisiting over a long time with the rules being upgraded around magic use.

Note to self - set paramaters and expections for your players. Sure, give them input and some freedom to add spells and spell lists but also some guidelines from the start.

[jdale]

In RMSS, we've shuffled around base lists or let the player decide, mainly for priests and professions where the base lists needed some help (e.g. warrior mage). One PC decided he wanted to learn some arcane magic and that required finding a teacher. (This game transitioned to RMU but we have not been able to play for a while.)

In RMU, I'm using a lot of custom lists and for a while was letting players assemble their own set of base lists. But I don't like how that lets people be everything and removed the distinction between professions, so I'm now at pick 6 out of this list of 9-12 which is working reasonably well.

Open and closed lists in both cases have been left open to pick what you want.

[Hurin]

Interesting. I wonder if you might allow characters to take the other lists for their profession, but at the 'Restricted' cost?

[PiXeL01]

As writing above I allow my players to choose their base lists as they please and fit their character concept.
In RM2 we use all companions and spell users companion.

All professions can choose 10 lists. Pure and Hybrid users learn two lists for free at lvl 1, Semi’s can choose one.

[Druss_the_Legend]

As writing above I allow my players to choose their base lists as they please and fit their character concept.
In RM2 we use all companions and spell users companion.

All professions can choose 10 lists. Pure and Hybrid users learn two lists for free at lvl 1, Semi’s can choose one.

i like this structure.

[Thot]

In a "standard fantasy setting", where magic is widespread and common enough to have learning institutions, why would you limit it at all?

[MisterK]

In a "standard fantasy setting", where magic is widespread and common enough to have learning institutions, why would you limit it at all?

That's true even for non standard settings - even without learning institutions, you can always come up with a reason why someone would know something as long as that thing exists. The main potential issue is that game balance problems might ruin some people's fun at the table. But beyond that, my primary rule is to ask how the player thinks this is consistent with the character's concept and background (another good question might be to ask the player if he would like another player's character to have it instead of himself). The second rule is "don't say no - but present the cost".
With great power comes a really sucky backstory.

[Jengada]

Interested to hear what other GMs do when it comes to spell selections and spell lists for their players.

1. Do you use all the spell companions or just a selct number?
2. Does the GM choose the lists or do they have freedom to make their own choice for spell lists?
3. Do you have any house rules you have created for your campaign around Spell List learning?

I'm running RM2, for context.
1. I use the general Rolemaster Companions. I have the Channeling and Mentalism Companions, but use them more for GM world-building and mechanics ideas.
2. Players can choose any lists from Spell Law. My players don't have book collections, so don't know about all the stuff in the Companions. They know there's "more stuff" out there, and will ocassionally ask me about ideas they have. Or, I'll listen to their character vision and then point them towards Companion or home-brew lists.
3. Not really. I use the optional rules for learning individual spells, and find that works very well for my players. 

[Majyk]

Love me some High Fantasy and see the following in many RM2/RMC games:

-Adding one’s Magic Realm stat for every list developed vs not doing so unless spending 20 ranks for a full 100% on the first list available to a PC.
THIS.  So much, this!  Wanna differentiate Darth Vader’s Presence Total Bonus vs an Ewok baby?!  Allow this. 

Also!  Add magic realm stats to B.A.R.s to show power differences too!
(We all want our Players to develop other skills and be useful…don’t use this rule. 
Allow adding one’s magic stat to as many lists developed for the 5% chance they allow based upon the Spell List Picks table.)

- For extra list access, even add one’s Level Bonus for Base Spell Casting to the % for base lists only.
(This allows your PCs to access a bunch of Utility spells they’ll use vs scrimping and saving their Power Points for combat-only spells.  More lists equals more variety.)

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

Considering that I don't ask my players to choose a "profession" but to create thus describe me the character they'd like to play, I don't have issue with their spell lists, as I am the one who suggests and chooses the (RM2) "profession" most fitting the character the player wants, creating one if needed. As such, for obvious reasons, I always agree with the spell lists the "profession" has. :p

[brole]

Interested to hear what other GMs do when it comes to spell selections and spell lists for their players.

I've written down house rules I'll share some here as it might be of interest.

1. Do you use all the spell companions or just a selct number?

Nearly all companions from RM2. Not every spell list is used though.

Individual spell dev not used.

2. Does the GM choose the lists or do they have freedom to make their own choice for spell lists?

Anything available to the profession usually.

I've marked some lists as available to learn from certain locations, so a background story around spells they start with is a bonus.

3. Do you have any house rules you have created for your campaign around Spell List learning?

RM2 percent chance to learn replaced with "percent chance to cast".
If a list is below 100% learned then an extra roll is done at the start of casting to see if spell failure occurs.

Characters undergo 'attunement rituals' when they gain a profession and learn spells so I've used this to rationalize the exclusivity of spells lists to professions.
These rituals infuse particular power into the character that prevents casting spells not available to their profession.

I've created new spell user types and made changes to arcane spells and users.

[PiXeL01]

As writing above I allow my players to choose their base lists as they please and fit their character concept.
In RM2 we use all companions and spell users companion.

All professions can choose 10 lists. Pure and Hybrid users learn two lists for free at lvl 1, Semi’s can choose one.

I forgot to add:
- we add stat bonus to spell gain rolls
- we allow development of multiple lists each level simultaneously even if you do not gain the first.
- we calculate power points similarly to hp for more oomph at lower levels.

[Druss_the_Legend]

As writing above I allow my players to choose their base lists as they please and fit their character concept.
In RM2 we use all companions and spell users companion.

All professions can choose 10 lists. Pure and Hybrid users learn two lists for free at lvl 1, Semi’s can choose one.

I forgot to add:
- we add stat bonus to spell gain rolls
- we allow development of multiple lists each level simultaneously even if you do not gain the first.
- we calculate power points similarly to hp for more oomph at lower levels.

i like the PP rule. gives casters a better chance at low levels.

[damage]

I'm using RMFRP.

1. I use Of Mentalism, Channeling and Essence. Mentalism Companion is available, there's a few lists in Channeling and (RMSS) Essence Companion that I've said no to, Of Fire and Ice is restricted, Arcane Companion heavily restricted.

2. I'm not keen on players playing pure healers, otherwise they can take whatever base/open/closed lists they want, with exceptions above. Priests can swap out some of their base lists with appropriate lists from Channeling Companion, as can Rangers, since I think the RMFRP Ranger base lists are rather poor. I don't let casters take spells from other base lists.

3. After every 5 levels of spells they've bought in a list, casters need to do some research if they want to buy from the next 5 levels in that list. They can learn from a book, a NPC, or another PC who already knows the list to that level. Once they've done that, they can buy the 5 spells from that portion by spending the DP to buy each spell individually.