Topic: Channeling vs Mentalism vs Essence? Strengths and Weaknesses?

[Malleable]

I'm curious what your opinions are on the strengths/weaknesses of the three realms of magic, and how you think they compare to each other.  I'll ignore Arcane, as it pretty much covers everything spell wise, and the weaknesses are often based on what options your GM imposes (e.g. dispelled by any realm, all three realms, arcane only, etc)

For Mentalism the ability to wear armor outside of a helm is a big plus.  Often not needing a verbal or somatic component is huge.  Self healing as a spell list is nice.  That their spells more often than not only affect one target at a time can be a big weakness.
The available professions clearly dominate in mind influencing and information gathering, and lower costs for some of the body/concentration oriented skills (martial arts, meditation, etc.)

Channeling users tend to have lower weapon and armor skill costs.  The best group healing available to all casters (Lay Healer might be better than Healer at healing - I don't know).  I feel like they have better options when 'all hope is lost' situations occur - Divine Favor type stuff. 
On the other hand, if you start acting contrary to your god, your GM might pull his support.

Essence seems to have some of the biggest effects.  Mass destruction or large scale effects.  And I believe a bit more ability to shape their magic to different effects than the other realms (shaping, triggering, extensions, etc.).  Perhaps they have an easier time creating new magic?
They do have a lack of healing (one of my pet peeves).  And probably the worst penalties when it comes to wearing armor. 

What are your thoughts?

Mal 

[jdale]

Mentalism has a weakness in that it generally only affects a single target, and of course targets often need to have minds. It can do healing very well, but only if you make it your specialty (i.e. Lay Healer). It's super for information gathering and anything subtle, like a game focused on politics, stealth, or thievery.

Channeling makes healing available to everyone without eating up their base list slots (except for Paladin, but that list is so compact it's worth it). The open and closed healing lists aren't as good as Lay Healer. (Healer is even better, but that's a hybrid Mentalism/Channeling profession, best of both, which in some ways costs you more.) Some additional advantages if undead or demons are common foes, which is very campaign dependent.

I like that Essence has a big hole in terms of healing. They get the heavy damage and all the classic potent magic, like invisibility and teleportation and flight. It's good that they can't fill all the other niches too, or they'd be rendering a lot of other professions irrelevant. The armor limitations are also a check on the realm. It has the advantage in a heavy combat game, I think.

[Marrethiel]

Also, many monsters (undead and constructs especially) are immune to M type spells.
Essence is just the best utility I think. We don't have a pure essence user in our group atm and we constantly miss it.

[markc]

 On a side note I had always hoped that someone would completely redo the spell lists and increased the differences in someway between the realms. But the issue I always had with my idea to do so was to either have 2 spells per rank instead of one, increase the rank at which specific basic fantasy damage spells were available and the fact that I did not see a really other good way to distance the realms besides "world/campaign" role play rules.
 I really like how the RMSS Channeling Comp. did have some rules for different deity spell lists as well as an outline for what you might do to define the Channeling magic sphere differently than the other magic spheres.
MDC

[Cory Magel]

I pretty much would echo what jdale said for the most part.  There are some intangibles/campaign specific things.  Like some GM's don't pay any attention to how a Channeling user behaves, while others will strip you of your spells in a heartbeat if you do something 'immoral' (according to your PC's diety/religion).  With Essence it might be power focus points or leylines, etc.

There was so much more we could have included in the Channeling Companion, but weren't allowed to push the page count AT ALL.  That book could have easily been twice as big.

[markc]

Maybe there could be a supplemental PDF, while people wait for RMU? 
MDC

[markc]

 I have also thought about putting a rule in place for Arcane Magic to be a higher form of magic requiring the caster to master some lists to 10th rank, then master other lists in other realms to 10th rank before buying into the Arcane realm. This would be done by allowing the caster to buy talents to reduce the DP costs for other realms magic and/or possibility allowing for a new hybrid type caster to be created in the game. 
  This is not so much an issue in RMSS vs RM2 as you have more DP to play with per level and that gives you some more options as to how you spend them and on what.


 The idea came from the old bard in D&D 1st in which you had to be a 10th level, fighter, Cleric, thief, magic user before you were allowed to take your 1st level in Bard. 
MDC

[Cory Magel]

Actually, I'll pass along one of the professions that didn't go in to Peter (Mork) to put in The Guild Companion.  It was a Channeling Semi, basically a Battlefield Medic type.

A lot of the stuff we had the outline/basics, but didn't formally write them up because we knew there was no room.  Sounds funny, but the few times I've seen criticism of the Channeling Companion I was like "Yeah! Right on! What that guy said!" cause they were complaining about stuff missing that we wanted to put in but were told we couldn't due to space constraints.

I had a bit worked up about how to create your own "Mythos" or Pantheon.  I really think that should have gone in.  We also had material we wanted to cover for Avatars too, but that could really turn into it's own entire book and I don't know as if it'd really get used all that much.  Not many groups have gods running around (even via the proxy of an Avatar) in their setting.  What it came down to, in the end, is we had to decide what was more directly character impacting and would potentially get the most use.

[markc]

 I also loved some of the rules in the GP about initiates to deities gaining access and abilities. Now I just have to find where I pit the saved files again or doa search of the GP to re-find the articles.
MDC

[jdale]

I have also thought about putting a rule in place for Arcane Magic to be a higher form of magic requiring the caster to master some lists to 10th rank, then master other lists in other realms to 10th rank before buying into the Arcane realm. This would be done by allowing the caster to buy talents to reduce the DP costs for other realms magic and/or possibility allowing for a new hybrid type caster to be created in the game. 

That's an interesting idea. I like the idea of Arcane magic being something you only dabble in once you are well established in the common magics, but the cost of doing that is pretty high because of how professions work.

It would also be interesting to see interrelated spell lists where one list is a prereq for another -- or perhaps one list grants a significant discount on another (if there's a lot of overlap). That could be a way to do it.

[B Hanson]

We always felt that there was not enough differentiation between realms so I rewrote Spell Law for my own campaign and recently updated it with the changes coming through RMU. I expanded the total lists: 60 Essence lists, 54 Channeling and 48 Mentalism, around 4000 total spells. I consolidated spells to eliminate redundancy and filler spells and I added a lot of new spells(including filling in levels 20-30). Spells are now grouped by similarity or aspect but still fit into professions and the standard open/closed/base. We don't have any realm limitations but "higher paths" (base/open) require a pre-requisite DP cost. i.e. Fire Law requires 10 ranks in "Fire Lore".

For Essence we removed all the "spirit" style spells. Spells are grouped so instead of 5-6 base lists covering the elements there is Fire Law with 5 base lists specific to fire, water law with 5 base lists etc. We saw Essence as a more physical/physics process with not much efficacy on souls/minds/spirit. Essence is more direct and powerful but certainly not subtle. SCR process is still similar to traditional RM using the spell list bonus to modify the SCR. Encumbrance acts as a penalty to SCR.

Channeling was actually broadened, though a lot of spell powers are defined by the players Deity. Channeling spells are also the most "miraculous". We increased spell casting times to 1-5 rnds to represent an actual invocation process. Most importantly we use "Prayer" skill for the channeling SCR. Roleplaying a religion is always tricky--alignments can help modify player behavior but for many it's swept under the table or a player gives it token effort. The Prayer skill requires an actual DP cost so it reflects the effort and devotion of the PC. PC's can't cast spells higher than their Prayer skill ranks and if they skip taking any ranks in a level they lose a rank. This reflects an ongoing devotional effort to their deity. If their Prayer is 0 they are unable to invoke/cast channeling spells (or at least base/closed depending on deity). We also use the Prayer skill for "Invocation"--an active plea for divine intervention. This is different than channeling--it allows any player(not just casters) to call upon their respective god/deity/pantheon for aid. Thus the Prayer skill can be useful for non spell casters as well.

Mentalism changed the most in the rewrite. Powers were narrowly defined and are target(s) specific--not many area effect spells. Mentalism spells have 1 rnd or inst. casting times but require active concentration throughout it's duration. We adjusted the concentration rules (-50 penalty per task offset by Mental Discipline skill). Mentalists can cast and concentrate on multiple spells but with increased risk of failure.

We use SW as our setting, so energy/pp/power is one source: the Essaence. Thus realms are different processes rather than separate sources of unique power. During the re-write, I found that some spell lists required a different mechanism than their historically assigned realm. (there was some great work done on this back in some older Guild Companions).  We added several new "realms:  alchemy(investiture), written magic(runes, symbols, glyphs, signs, sigils), performance magic(songs, tales, music, dance and art) and natural/innate magic. Plus we use about 50 cantrips (sub level 1).

Anyway it seems to be working well with the group and it basically allows for multi-classing PC's. Now that we are all older with less time to play it gives the group a wider range of skills and access to interesting spells they would not have had before. Plus it works well in SW where specialty classes or characters exist that never fit well into the normal RM2 professions. (Navigators, Loremasters )

[markc]

B Hanson,
 I think the way you have done it is the way it should be done or at least the way I would like to see it in my game.


 I hope that at some time you might be able to post or sell what you have done so others could use your material for there game.
MDC

[Hurin]

I very much like the idea of more differentiation between the realms, and of Channeling users having spells that reflect their gods (kind of like Cleric Domains in DnD).

[Malleable]

I do like the Priest differentiation of channeling spells.

But I honestly think the differentiation between the realms is fine.  I think magic should be able to do most things, regardless of where it comes from.  Honestly the overlap in spells is one of the things that drew me to RM.  Always irked me that healing was from gods, and mage type stuff couldn't do that. 

[B Hanson]

B Hanson,
 I think the way you have done it is the way it should be done or at least the way I would like to see it in my game.


 I hope that at some time you might be able to post or sell what you have done so others could use your material for there game.
MDC

I hope I have the chance to publish it at some point as a alt. rules or companion!

As an example here is the summary for the Essence realm:

   Essence Lists      
         
Greater Paths (Base Lists)         
         
Earth Law           Cold Law            Fire Law           Light Law
Earth Forms   Ice Attacks            Fire Attacks   Summon Light
Earth Mastery   Ice Forms            Fire Mastery   Light Attacks
Earth Attacks   Cold Mastery    Fire Travel   Light Manipulation
Earthly Reigns   Call Cold            Fire Forms   Light Veils
         
Water Law                   Wind Law               Dark Law           Sound Law
Water Commune   Wind Movement      Summon Dark           Sound Control
Command Water   Controlling Winds   Master of Dark   Sound Waves
Call Water                   Wind Attacks      
Water Forms            Defensive Winds      
         
Dimension Law       Magic Mastery   Shield Law   
Gate Mastery       Spell Disruption   Elemental Shields   
Phase Mastery       Spell Reigns           Weapon Shields   
Time Mastery       Spell Mastery           Spell Shields   
         
Delving Law           Demonology           Tranformation Law   
Physical Analysis   Demonic Summoning   Living Enhancement   
Detections                   Demonic Protections   Living Change   
Power Analysis           Demonic Ways           Living Augmentation   
         
Lesser Paths (Closed Lists)      Minor Paths (Open Lists)   
         
Augmentation                     Elemental Shields   
Automaton                             Essence Hand   
Lesser Cold                     Lesser Delving   
Lesser Earth                     Lesser Detections   
Lesser Fire                             Lesser Magic Mastery   
Lesser Light                     Movement Mastery   
Lesser Water                     Perceptions   
Lesser Wind                     Physical Enhancement   
Mind Lore                             Spell Shields   
Teleportation         

[jdale]

So I take it each of the lists is more specialized and focused than the originals? Is there overlap within the lists of a group (e.g. Earth Law and Earth Attacks)? How many base lists does a character get?

[B Hanson]

So I take it each of the lists is more specialized and focused than the originals? Is there overlap within the lists of a group (e.g. Earth Law and Earth Attacks)? How many base lists does a character get?

Yes the lists are much more specialized and spells occur at lower levels. ie firebolt at 3rd lvl and fireball at 5th lvl (but both are  SMALL size). Not sure you what you are asking about overlap, but there is no duplicate spells among the lists (ie the Fire Law group).

We don't use Base/Open/Close although I included it for reference and can be used that way. We utilize packages for professions--similar to cultural packages in RUM. Starting "Mages" can choose 1 Higher Path and 5 spells plus a few other open list spells.  Professional packages allow for quick character generation and its easy to create new cultural/genre specific professions.

We don't have limitations on realms and players can obtain other Higher Paths (Base) by spending the pre-requisites. Generally pre-reg's are 10 ranks of XXX Lore for Higher Paths(I have Dimension Law at 20 ranks Lore due to it's specialized nature), no pre-req's for Minor Paths (Open). Lesser Paths are 5 ranks.

[jdale]

That's an interesting approach. I'm starting to feel the limitations of the base list system, especially for types of magic that really make sense later in your career but which are currently defined as base lists to control access. E.g. the Alchemist lists, the lists from the Construct Companion. Using prereq skills is a nice way to handle that, and gives the mage the skill base to feel well-rounded. In my own game I've started using linked skills as the basis for designing magical rituals (e.g. Earth Lore might be used to design an earth-magic based ritual, and then you still use the ritual skill to actually perform the ritual after it has been designed) to achieve that goal, but hadn't thought of using them as prereqs. My other thought had been to swap base lists for a DP cost (basically like a talent, but you'd be limited to 6 base lists at any time and could change no more than one per level).

Have you used the system long enough to see how it handles high level characters? Does access to a lot of base lists shift the power balance?

By overlap, I did mean duplication between the lists as you inferred.

Since I've redesigned all the realms for my game for campaign-specific reasons, I do feel some freedom to make other radical changes....

[markc]

 I have always wanted to see magic item creation tied to a talent like system.
MDC

[B Hanson]

Have you used the system long enough to see how it handles high level characters? Does access to a lot of base lists shift the power balance?

We haven't done any campaigning at very high levels but the other tweaks I use creates quite a few "DP sinks" that purposefully limit spell bloat. What we see are spellcasters with more powerful spells but fewer of them compared to RM and RMSS. This gives casters very unique profiles--something that professions should do in RM, but by lvl 15 or so you start seeing homogenization as casters have all taken the same open/closed lists that provide maximum utility.

This is one of the PC's for comparison purposes.

Aneros. now 7th lvl
Adolescent/Culture: Nomad
Vocation(2-7 year period after adolescence for training, academia, apprenticeship, work etc): Hedge Wizard.
A "Hedge Wizard" is considered a minor practitioner of the magical arts and often scorned by true Mages. Hedge Wizards may not master the greater paths but they do excel at knowing a broad range of spells and types of magic. Many Hedge Wizards are self-taught or had informal tutors, drawing skills and abilities from a variety of sources.
Vocation package included(all vocations have 25 ranks--this starts lvl 1 PC's with adequate skills and abilities)
1 spells Essence Lesser (Closed)
4 spells Essence Minor (Open)
1 spells Channeling Believers (Open)
1 spell Rendered (oratory)
1 spell Investiture (simple imbedding)
1 spell Notational (wards)
5 spells Incidental (cantrips)

So at 1st lvl he had 9 spells and some cantrips split between essence, channeling, written magic, performing magic and imbedding. He's a jack of all trades (and adequate combat skills) but now at 7th lvl (33 total spells from 12 lists) none of his spells are going to compare to a Mage with specialization in the Greater Paths (Base). Our 7th lvl  Mage is  pretty good in 1 Higher Path and starting on another(spread pre-req cost out over a few lvls), plus some Open and Closed he's looking at 41 spells from 8 or 9 lists. I think our last campaign using RM2 a 7th lvl magician had 65 spells from 12 lists.

To get back around to your question, having the ability to access multiple Base lists or realms doesn't necessarily translate in the ability to do so without a real opportunity cost of other skills. I think what I see is continual development of new skills at the higher levels and not just maxing out of skill ranks for lack of something better. I know our "fighter types" are waiting a few more levels and then are going to develop some magic skills.

btw All of this allows for different tactics when combating spellcasters. In RM2 you knew that Magicians could basically throw spells from any of the elements. In our game the PC's need to figure out what type of Mage they are encountering for both offense and defense considerations--they have found that "Earth Wizards" are the most difficult! "Wind Mages" are a close second.