Topic: Can you tell how good your Opponent is?

[MariusH]

We never announce the OB or DB of any foe. Nor do we announce how much the foes uses to parry (which they usually do), so such calculations are rather difficult in our games.

[Marc R]

After the first couple of attacks, if the dice are rolled where everyone can see them, you can usually guess OB+DB to within 10-20 points. (as in, my attack on him was a final result of 145 before DB but did a 6A, and I had 65 DB vs his roll of X and he got 6 hits on me) You get close, and it's attack OB + Parry OB + Innate DB you figure out, so there's still some uncertainty there, but not a lot.

One of the GMs I play with hides all rolls for just that reason, and no other.

[Lord Garth]

After the first couple of attacks, if the dice are rolled where everyone can see them, you can usually guess OB+DB to within 10-20 points. (as in, my attack on him was a final result of 145 before DB but did a 6A, and I had 65 DB vs his roll of X and he got 6 hits on me) You get close, and it's attack OB + Parry OB + Innate DB you figure out, so there's still some uncertainty there, but not a lot.

I don't announce OB and DB during the first two rounds, but after that it's largely irrelevant whether I tell them or not. They will be able to make a very close estimate of their foes' OB and DB, so I just tell them and be done with it.

[Marc R]

It also makes some sense that you'd begin to get the feel for your opponent's skill level if the fight lasts 30+ seconds. I still don't announce it, first to keep the split a secret until after initiative, and second so the unexpected can erupt (like a foe pretending to be weaker than they are "wasting" some, or a buff spell being cast).

That said, I know that the players know that I know they know the general skill levels once you get to the 2-3rd round.

[yammahoper]

It also makes some sense that you'd begin to get the feel for your opponent's skill level

More like three seconds.  An opponents stance speaks tons in the first half second.  The next half second reveals if you interpreted poorly as you wade in for the first, and hopefully successful, attack.

I find describing the defensive and offensive abilities of a foe relative to the PC's a good approach.  A 110 OB/45DB PC faces off against an 80 OB/80DB foe, I will describe the NPC as having solid footwork, he obviously knows his away around his weapon and his defense is solid, it will be difficult to penetrate.  The PC can act accordingly.  But when the 192 OB/70DB fighter runs into the room on the 17th freaking round of combat, I will describe the NPC as well trained and quick but lacking the talent to be a serious threat, his defense is full of holes...which with a 192 OB, it IS.

When I plan encounters one thing always on my mind is combined OB/DB of foes and how well they need to roll to score crits.  I aim for descent rolls of 70 to 90 delivering A-C crits, with A-B preferable.  A few A crits dont kill, but they only kill on a very high roll (typically 100).  My goal is to injure, maim, hurt, use up those healing supplies and lower pp totals.  I learned long ago a player feels fear as soon as you the GM picks up the dice.  Any blow will increase the fear.  The A and B crits simply increase odds I wont kill them in a battle short of the sories climax (were often the bad guy is considerably betterthan the PC's in offensive ability).

There is a handy table in RMCI that records the results needed for first critical achieved on average for the RAW weapons and spell tables.  I have expanded this table for every weapon, spell and SM attack table.  Knowing what weapons are weaker against certain AT's allows judicious application, even providing the players an edge, or depriving them of an edge.  The scimitar is the worst sword against higher AT but fairly effective against light and no armors.  Equip your NPCs with scimitars against your chain and plate fighters and you provide them 20 points of hidden DB.  Not that they know that, which is perfect.  You can even up the NPC OB a bit and make em afraid, the entire time knowing the danger has not actually been increased, but the players will talk long into the night about that Hobgoblin Guard with the 105 OB and high init bonuses. 

Having lethality with A crits maintains a sense of dread and fear that helps make good drama.  It also re-enforces the moral that fights are dangerous and should be avoided.  I think the 1-5% chance of lethal blows is a good thing and removing it would alter RM flavor in a negative way.

[GrumpyOldFart]

It also makes some sense that you'd begin to get the feel for your opponent's skill level

More like three seconds.  An opponents stance speaks tons in the first half second.  The next half second reveals if you interpreted poorly as you wade in for the first, and hopefully successful, attack.

It may be good to remember the +5/+2/+1 convention here. Personally I think that's a reasonably accurate representation of diminishing return. So let me see if I can put it in terms germane to RM mechanics that all sides can agree with:

In the first second or so, you've seen "the basics", and using the RM conventions your perceptions of his offense and defense are probably roughly accurate, around 50% in your favor +/- your natural talents at that direction.

Within a round, you've got a pretty accurate idea of who he or she is as an opponent, say 70% +/- talents (stat bonuses, etc.)

And as it falls in line with the game as it's happening around the table, by the third round or so the accuracy of your assessment of your foe is approaching 100%.

 

[yammahoper]

One thing is certain, this boards members constantly excercise my diplomacy skill!

 

[Thom @ ICE]

You may have open-ended in this discussion....

[Marc R]

LOL.

I've played a few swashbuckler games, where finesse was highly valued, and sometimes you'd downplay your skill to try and draw out your opponent.

[MariusH]

Since we DON'T roll open for enemies attacks (these rolls are made secretly), you only get the result of the attack. Combine that with opponents that vary their amount of parry, and it usually takes several rounds before the players get a decent estimate of OB/DB. Of course, the description of the opponent usually gives them a fairly good idea, and if it's a monster, and they have met such monsters before, they know what they are up against. Facing a human opponent is a different matter, though.

[bpowell]

Have fenced a few times and played Kendo more than that, I can tell you that it does not take long before you know if you opponent is better than you.  While there is always the lucky shot.  Most time to know fairly quick f you "have a chance".

In RM i rarely let the folks know what the DB of the "Bad Guys" until they have run a  few rounds.  And if it is an intelligent foe, I might never tell them allowing for them to change it at will.  I let them know if i am doing this by using wording such as "S/He parries you attack away."

[mocking bird]

We usually tell the players their opponent's DB so they can do the math on their attack rolls to find the damage.  We never tell the player's their opponents OB - it is up to them to decide if they want to parry or not.  This depends greatly if they get pounded on an attack to decide if they have  high OB or got lucky.  As a GM it is often difficult to hide one's expression or sifle the 'oops' when open ending, or the dreaded sound of a reroll.  If the oppenent likewise decides to parry we will let the players know the change in DB.

If they want more technical character knowledge there is always situational (combat) awareness.

I tend to agree with Yamma's philosophy regarding the crits.  However several players have an (ir)rational fear of tiny crits after having some death crits from seemingly harmless opponents.

[arakish]

Have fenced a few times and played Kendo more than that, I can tell you that it does not take long before you know if you opponent is better than you.  While there is always the lucky shot.  Most time to know fairly quick f you "have a chance".

And I have trained with a Katana (the wooden ones, of course), and wholeheartedly agree.  I always found that it would take only the equivalent of about 3-5 rounds before you know whether you "have a chance" or in deep budu.

rmfr

[yammahoper]

I tend to agree with Yamma's philosophy regarding the crits.  However several players have an (ir)rational fear of tiny crits after having some death crits from seemingly harmless opponents.

Hee hee hee, been there.

[yammahoper]

You may have open-ended in this discussion....

I'll take that as a compliment, thank you 

[dutch206]

That said, I know that the players know that I know they know the general skill levels once you get to the 2-3rd round.

Brain Cramp!

[JimiSue]

I've played a few swashbuckler games, where finesse was highly valued, and sometimes you'd downplay your skill to try and draw out your opponent.

Or, just to give yourself a challenge. I reference "The Princess Bride", during the fight between Inigo Mantoya and the Dread Pirate Roberts, where both begin the fight using their off-hand, but later change to the correct one when they realise they are facing an opponent of comparable skill.

[Marc R]

JimmiSue "I am no left handed." 

Dutch, I was wondering if anyone would notice that one.

[providence13]

We often share the book load for combat and it's normal for me to tell the Arms Law guy an opponent's DB.
I still get funny looks when they realize the DB may change from one round to the next. "They seem to fight intelligently..." 

[bpowell]

We often share the book load for combat and it's normal for me to tell the Arms Law guy an opponent's DB.
I still get funny looks when they realize the DB may change from one round to the next. "They seem to fight intelligently..." 

Gasp!  An intelligent "monster'!

I judge a lot at local cons and there was a person that built his entire character concept around a particular feat.  It allowed him to user his character and a mount to attack an opponent and not be hit when he did so (Ride by attack and AOO in the 'System that shall not be named').  He bragged after at other tables it made his character "un-hitable", there by invincible.  I had not heard this but in a late in the Con he sat a table with me.  The bad guy was a nasty giant type.  He used the feat and attacked the poor bad guy and I could not attack him.  But the second round the monster held his attack and as the player did the ride by again he swung and connected....the mount killing it.

The player whined and said I could not attack him because of the Feat.  I showed him the FULL wording and said that the feat prevented Attacks of Opportunity, not normal attacks.  The player pouted and was unruly the rest of the slot.  At the end of the slot he cried to the RP coordinator.  Upon reviewing the rule it was decided that I was right and he was wrong.

Strange, the rest of that Con Monsters that had intelligence "got smarter".

Moral of the story....build you character one dimensional and you will be taken advantage of every time.