Topic: What are stats, and why do we need them?

[Cory Magel]

Nice straw man arguement.

It's a lovely straw man though.

Diversity of possibilities, personalization and representation of your character(s), and a subtle balance factor worked into the game system.

[yammahoper]

The question is "what are stats?"

The most basic answer is a mechanism used to generate modifiers that are applied to skill resolution and other mechanism, such as DB and enc.

Do we need Stats?  Not if there is another mechanism to generate those stat mods.

OTOH, perhaps tradition demands them. 

[Cory Magel]

Stats are part of how many player relate to and visualize their characters.  It's almost the same argument as "Why are there arch-types?"

If I have a huge burly tank and you have a small light fencer how are we going to differentiate them without stats?

[Marc R]

What generates stat mods, if not stats?

You could just use the mod, in effect, in all instances of play other than rolling stats, assigning stats, or stat gain, use the stat mod. . .with the exception of:

Stat drain

Death at -con hits

In which instance, it's there because otherwise people with negative con modifiers would die at positive hits, and even the superhumanly high con would die at -30 or less.

[rdanhenry]

What are stats?
A game mechanic that influences a fairly wide range of other mechanics.

Why do we need them?
Because gamers expect them.

[thiha]

To me, the ten Stats, either of Primary Stats or Developement Stats, are one of the iconic aspects/components of Rolemaster. Without them, or if they got trimmed down to fewer stats, say, eight stats like for the Not-RM or HARP, it wouldn't appeal to me as a Rolemaster.

[Ecthelion]

I did not spend so much thought about why we RM uses stats and whether they are needed. I rather think that - if a new RM version gets created - that we should concentrate on reworking things where RM has weaknesses. I cannot remember a single thread where someone complained about RM using the 10 stats. So, if it works don't fix it!

Just my 2 cents

[vroomfogle]

I cannot remember a single thread where someone complained about RM using the 10 stats. So, if it works don't fix it!

Where's smug?   He should be dropping by any minute to start complaining about Empathy again.

[Cormac Doyle]

Nothing wrong with either Empathy or Intuition ... but "nature spells", the Ranger and the Animist should all be essence professions

[Cormac Doyle]

Now to start of the Monk and Bard 

[Ecthelion]

Instead of "the 10 stats" I perhaps should have written "10 stats". That might have prevented the unnecessary debate (at least in this thread, where it's about why and if stats) about individual stat preferences. So please assume I had chosen this slightly different wording.

[yammahoper]

Even if only mods were generated, players would begin to refer to them as stats.  As in "I have a +8 St stat."

Co drain: now I know your imagination isnt this limited.  Change the drain mechanic, or remove the drain mechanic, or generate soul points based on Co, say 10x mod? 

In the end I also agree the current stat system (refrence to RMSS and RM2) works fine.  It might be better to reduce the rate of stat gain rolls, but I like the high potentials generated, and so do players.

[David Johansen]

Co drain isn't as bad as all that.  The skills it impacts are really pretty limited.  Off the top of my head, Athletic Brawn, Athletic Endurance, Body Development, and possibly Self Control and / or Outdoor Environmental.

[pastaav]

I totally agree that Co drain is a mechanics with very little real impact. It is mechanics that take loads of effort of execute, but very few players would worry about having most of the Co stat drained since it not until the very end that the penalty really mean anything significant.

As for stats...I think it is given that we need to have stats to make the races mean stuff.

I think in the core rules character ages should be divided into three areas.
*Child characters use stat gains that does not depend on their level, but rather age. 
*Grown up characters can easily be approximated as having their potential stats, characters do reach their potentials very quickly so why clutter the core rules with a mechanic that only apply to the very first levels.
*Old characters suffer stat loss to the physical stats, but get extra DP to spend on lore/mental skills.

The only real benefit of keeping the stat gains is that some people might like rolling loads of dice when they level up.

Another possibility is having stat gains that are not random, but based on what skills the character buy.

 

[yammahoper]

On soul drain: one of RM strong points is the equality of all.  A dagger will kill anyone that is stabbed in the heart with it, regardless of level.  Perhaps the strength of souls should be equal also, a set stat with a table that establishes penalties suffered when the soul is damaged/drained.  Something in the optional section me thinks.

Spells, magic items, artifacs, magic items: all could bolster, heal or damage the soul.  I see an entire new spell list, or even a SOUL MAGE...

[smug]

I cannot remember a single thread where someone complained about RM using the 10 stats. So, if it works don't fix it!

Where's smug?   He should be dropping by any minute to start complaining about Empathy again.

The Empathy stat, ironically, kills puppies and drinks their blood.

[markc]

 IMHO stats are another area that players can look to improve and are a hold over from the beginning of RPG's.


 I have read and played with a couple of games that do stats differently and was not impressed about them. I also like the fact that you can improve a stat but that it does not necessarily improve or modify skills. IMHO this is an excellent way to do it and adds a lot of flavor without a lot of problems. But that is just me.


 Also IMO it adds another way to get stuff done. Such as the gate that needs 40 St mod points (RMSS) to open might be opened instead with a number or other strengths ie stat value that is equal to the valur of the 40 ST mod. I do not have the numbers right now but I think you get my drift.


MDC

[MidKnight]

I've been toying with adding Stat requirements to some item (weapons & armor) to be used effectively, and bonuses if the character's stats exceed the requirement.

Something along the lines of:

Shortbow has a minimum strength requirement of say 30 (representing the draw weight of the bow), which sets it's basic damage and range.  Maximum of C critical.  Within 10 feet it's +10 OB, +5 to 30 feet, +0 from 31 to 60 feet, and -1 OB per foot after that?

A composite recurve bow has a minimum requirement of say 75 (again representing a higher draw weight) which also set's it's basic damage & range.   Maximum of E critical.  Within 25 feet it's +10 OB, +5 to 50 feet, +0 from 51 to 75 feet, and -1 OB per foot after that?

Similar concept for armors, but when exceeding the strength requirement you can reduce the MM penalty by some amount.

[markc]

MidKnight;
 There is an old article on The Guild Companion that has Stats Mods required for weapons. I use it and it has greatly changed my game. Now very few gnomes and halflings can use short swords as they get a penalty to their ST Mod. I do not remember the mod necessary to use the short sword but I think it is 0 or -2 not much. But it had a great impact and IMHO the impact was for the better.


MDC

[MidKnight]

MidKnight;
 There is an old article on The Guild Companion that has Stats Mods required for weapons. I use it and it has greatly changed my game. Now very few gnomes and halflings can use short swords as they get a penalty to their ST Mod. I do not remember the mod necessary to use the short sword but I think it is 0 or -2 not much. But it had a great impact and IMHO the impact was for the better.


MDC

I believe I recall reviewing that a while back and may have been the source for my inspiration.  Thanks Mark, I'll have to circle back and see if I can find it and give it another / longer read.