Topic: Race vs. Culture

[Marc R]

If you should apply to large part of the user base then I think you need to stick to the core races. For everyone that think characters with wings is awesome you will find another who hate the idea totally. It very much depend on the campaign/setting what fits.

Actually I also think the question is bit badly phrased. The essential bit is really handling cultures (defined generic ones vs build your own cultures), the race is just one mechanical detail of the culture. Say for instance...what about if you had a random culture generator that let you adjust parameters like degree of combat orientation and then let you roll dice to determine the specifics. A build your own world toolkit that also generated the mechanical aspects of cultures and races?

I always considered race to be only the mechanical aspects. . .Culture is totally different. . .I've been in games where the Elves could have stepped out of Tolkien, I've been in games where elves were more like the fey, and broken into Seelie and Unseelie factions at war with each other, I've been in games where the elves were the ruling class of an urban imperial caste society with half elves in the middle and humans at the bottom. . .all the same mechanical elves, but all with different cultural/social behaviors and goals.

[Grinnen Baeritt]

I agree, for the most part though I'd say that a Elf with wings or gills ceases to be part of the same race because it is physically different and thus deserves seprate treatment in the rules even though they might share similar cultures. For the same reasoning I'd argue there being a rationale for the Wood/High/Grey/Dark elf splits. Yes, each could be raised in a different culture which might affect their skill base, but most races evolved for specific environments and that should be the primary factor.

Humans on the other hand.... 

[Moriarty]

We consider race and culture two sides of the same coin actually. This is obviously not correct in the real world, but for a fantasy game it is very appropiate. We have no need for the rare dwarf that was raised among forest people 

I'm not sure that I even like 'culture' as a game mechanical concept.
'Background' is much more useful term when considering adolecense ranks and such.

[GrumpyOldFart]

I think of "cultural ranks" or "adolescent ranks", or whatever label you choose to assign them, as a guideline more than anything else. When dealing with AIs in a SF game I decided that for an AI to have "cultural" or "adolescent" ranks was ludicrous. However it made perfect sense for them to have "operating system" ranks, which are identical in terms of the game mechanics.

Take for example, "Militaristic" cultural background. Militaristic as in medieval Japan, or Roman Empire, or Aztec, or Comanche, or what? You could reasonably expect the 4 examples above to have some fairly stark differences in the skill set that was just "absorbed" by virtue of immersion in the parent culture, could you not?

On the one hand I could see the sense in having half or more of cultural/adolescent ranks be fixed, and the remainder be chosen by the GM and player to work with the player's character concept. On the other hand, I could also see that opening the door for a fair amount of abuse, too, so I can't claim to have a good answer for this one. Other than to suggest that if you have enough confidence in your skill/experience as a GM, then look at the total number of ranks normally assigned to adolescence/culture and assign them yourself to fit the character's backstory.

[Cory Magel]

We consider race and culture two sides of the same coin actually. This is obviously not correct in the real world, but for a fantasy game it is very appropiate. We have no need for the rare dwarf that was raised among forest people 

I want exactly that possibility.  Granted, it's very easy for me to do this myself within the system, but I see no reason why you couldn't separate race from culture.  It's not going to mess anything up to any large extent.

That way you put out a core system that has: Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits, Gnomes.

Then you put out a largish single book or multiple books that sub-divide each race into sub-races.
Humans: Hillman, Mountain Man, Mariner, Ruralman, Urbanman, Plainsman
Elves: High, Wood, Grey, Underground
Dwarves: Mountain, Hill, Plains
...and so on.

Then you have optional rules for what to do when a Wood Elf is raised by Mountain Dwarves.  i.e. Culture, Background, Adolescence, whatever.

[yammahoper]

We consider race and culture two sides of the same coin actually. This is obviously not correct in the real world, but for a fantasy game it is very appropiate. We have no need for the rare dwarf that was raised among forest people 

I want exactly that possibility.  Granted, it's very easy for me to do this myself within the system, but I see no reason why you couldn't separate race from culture.  It's not going to mess anything up to any large extent.

That way you put out a core system that has: Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits, Gnomes.

Then you put out a largish single book or multiple books that sub-divide each race into sub-races.
Humans: Hillman, Mountain Man, Mariner, Ruralman, Urbanman, Plainsman
Elves: High, Wood, Grey, Underground
Dwarves: Mountain, Hill, Plains
...and so on.

Then you have optional rules for what to do when a Wood Elf is raised by Mountain Dwarves.  i.e. Culture, Background, Adolescence, whatever.

  This of course results in the Hobbit Mage Mountain Man.
  Is Mixed Man Mage Mountain Man reduntant?

God save me.

[Marc R]

You just saw the word "elf" and rode the hate across the rest of that post didn't you? 

[Cory Magel]

  This of course results in the Hobbit Mage Mountain Man.

(queue Austin Powers voice): Yeah baby!

Seriously, what's bad about the option to do that?

 

[Marc R]

(He hates elves with a passion that has no bottom or limit?)

Try Dwarf raised by human fishermen.

[Cory Magel]

(He hates elves with a passion that has no bottom or limit?)

Try Dwarf raised by human fishermen.

I have this mental image of a Dwarf showing up for the Shadow World olympics diving competition and all the Elves whispering 'What the hell is he doing up there?'

[David Johansen]

heh...

I've had players be offended by my treatment of elves in the past.

Really I blame D&D.  Here you have this writer who's convinced that playing non-humans is somehow inferior and childish but then he makes elves twice as good as everyone else and wonders why people don't play humans.

[Marc R]

That D&D Elf class was kickass. . .the first multi-class before multi-classing existed!!! <ducks foam shooting from yamma's mouth.>

[David Johansen]

Well, in my white box D&D elves could alternate between fighter and magic-user but couldn't go on an adventure as both.  They couldn't ride horses because their legs wouldn't spread wide enough either.  I'm not sure if the elf was a class in the original supplements because I never had those, just the white box I got from the bargain bin on vacation one year.

Really though Elves make great villains.  In my last campaign we had this one player who spent half the time just shell shocked by the behavior of the elves.  Mind you, the other half the time he was shell shocked by the behavior of the other players.  I think it was around the time when after accidentally "sacrificing" a messenger in a chapel.  (Well the gods took it that way and were pleased anyhow.)  They started looking for other potential gifts to the gods.  They killed another PC's father in a church, but the gods weren't so pleased that time because they actually liked the vicious elven sob...

[Marc R]

(I think he may actually explode. . .starts digging bomb shelter)

[Cory Magel]

Maybe Elves really exist in Holland and yammahoper blames them for raiding his garden or something...

[Marc R]

(You know not what you trifle with. . . .)

Yamma, is there a story at the bottom of the elf-hating, or is it just a gut, semi-instinctual thing?

[David Johansen]

I'm pretty sure it's normal for any healthy, upstanding, intelligent person.

Bloody elves

[Grinnen Baeritt]

Maybe Elves really exist in Holland and yammahoper blames them for raiding his garden or something...

Elves in Holland?  Ah, then there might be a reason for Aquatic Elves after all then....

 

I'm fairly sure that a few small modifications to the skills listing in the "Racial summary" to represent cross-diversity in the culture that it was raised in... those skill ranks which are cultural based being listed in a discrete section, much like the hobby ranks...can be done without a major reworking. Those people who do want "the exception to the written race" then having set guidelines to do so in one place akin to the Harp method. Until they do want to do this then it's simpler to use the race as originally intended by the author. 

[ironmaul]

Elves are pansies. Dwarves are way cooler

[Shottglazz]

What the OP is describing is what we're doing now. We have (for example) 5 cultures that have humans as playable races, none of which get the same stat or skill bonuses & penalties...a plainsman culture should not get the same background adjustments as a culture built around the sea and sailing after all...

We have changed character creation to reflect this...I encouraged my players to choose thier culture before their race...they commented that profession and skill choices seemed to flow much clearer this way...