Author Topic: Cutting the Revision Knot  (Read 9335 times)

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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Cutting the Revision Knot
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2011, 09:56:26 PM »
Hmmm. I agree it's easier to add the stat bonuses, however the stat bonuses could be more realistic and geared towards individual skills if they weren't tied to the categories.  For some reason it's one of the things that RM2 users dislike.  I could really take or leave them.  My inclination to lean towards getting rid of them in a potential revision/revamp is to help trim down the system for new users.
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Offline Tinimir06

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Re: Cutting the Revision Knot
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2011, 09:59:01 PM »
It is in my experience the Category system in RMSS was more confusing for new players.  Remove the need to have to purchase ranks in the Skill Category and go back to RM2 where only the skill needs to be purchased. 

Offline David Johansen

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Re: Cutting the Revision Knot
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2011, 11:39:00 PM »
My players have more trouble with RMSS style stat gain rolls.  Personally it's brilliant and gets rid of a chart reference but it is one place I'd probably go back to RM2's method without too much complaint.

I think categories as a supported option is the only way to make everyone happy.  And at this point the only way a revision will succeed is if it makes everyone happy somehow.

Offline markc

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Re: Cutting the Revision Knot
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2011, 12:33:42 AM »
 The problem with out categories is that Level Bonuses from RM2 are lost when and if you add new skills and you have to reprint a sheet every time you add skills.
 IMHO I do not like level bonuses as you have the possibility to change a lot of skills during a level. If you do not use a computer program to do this there is a great chance of an error.
 Stats some like 2 some like 3 some like 3 on the category and some like 2 on the category and 1 in the skill (my preference as it adds flavor to each skill and makes for a more variable bonus).


 IMHO when  RMSS was done people looked at D&D and AD&D and saw they jumped D&D and moved to AD&D. So they made the game more robust. IMHO the trick is to create a simple game and an advanced version that people will like and buy. Then it is the task to create other products that show off the best of both systems.


 I am a RMSS man with mods from SM:P and the MAC, Elemental Comp, Ch Comp, Ess Comp, Ment Comp and CC. I do not use the Arcane Comp much so I did not list it.


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Offline Grinnen Baeritt

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Re: Cutting the Revision Knot
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2011, 01:46:13 AM »
I'm a great fan of categories as well...(they are realistic albeit a little cumbersome to the uninitiated) but would like the categories all working the same way.

This may require a little "re-tooling" of the mind set.

Given that they are grouped as similiar skills, then there must be some sort of common ground between them. This could be either that they utilise the same learning processes or that they are similar activities linked by a common aptitude/talent.

Secondly, in the grand scheme of things, the majority of the skills in these groups are just not that important in play to warrant the confusion of being treated differently.

There should be two exceptions: PPD and Body Development, these work fine and are not difficult concepts to understand.

In the end, I'd prefer that the system be "cleaned up". RMSS addresses many of the things that I was uncomfortable with about RM2, mainly that it seemed to be a system that was unresolved with the addition of all the options in the companions (skills in particular) but didn't work the way I wanted it to without them. RM Classic may have addressed some of these issues, but like some others have said here.. I'm unlikely to change back.

Having said that, a "revised" core rules, with the inclusion of the modern and sci-fi skills of SM... would be of immense interest to me. Combat tables, Equipment, Magic and Races could all be dealt with in genre books.


« Last Edit: January 12, 2011, 01:51:36 AM by Grinnen Baeritt »

Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Cutting the Revision Knot
« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2011, 03:08:19 AM »
Some kind categorization of skills is a good thing IMO. The category can determine the costs of a skill, the stats it uses and the level/professional bonus for it. In order to add a new skill later it is only necessary to describe the skill and state the category it belongs to.

What I think is unnecessary is the additional development of ranks also for the skill categories, which RMSS introduced. Combined with a large number of skills, it made character development and level advancement needlessly complex.

Therefore I'd like to keep the categories that RMSS introduced, but I think developing ranks in skill categories, along with the additional rank progressions introduced for this, can be ditched.

YMMV

Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Cutting the Revision Knot
« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2011, 09:07:46 AM »
The categories as skill bonus contributors provide the same function as RM2 "similar skills" bonuses, but in a sane and manageable way. This is a very good thing.
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Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Cutting the Revision Knot
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2011, 10:42:42 AM »
Yes, in comparison to RM2's "similar skills" rules the introduction of skill categories and skill category development in RMSS was a very good thing. But OTOH RM2 core (without RoCo2) worked well without skill category development and without skill similarities. So the question is whether the added complexity introduced with skill category development is worth the benefits. And I see the benefit "only" in a simulation of skill similarities. And this is IMO not worth the efforts, at least in the implementation used in RMSS/RMFRP which is IMO flawed (what the heck have Sailing and First Aid or Religion and Region Lore in common?).

Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: Cutting the Revision Knot
« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2011, 11:11:53 AM »
I think the primary factionalism divides according to how you rate simplicity of use vs. granularity of results against one another. For those who want their granularity badly enough to give up the simplicity for the sake of it, yes there should probably be a product to keep them happy, which would be all of RMSS/FRP and probably part of the RM2/RMC fanbase.

For those who value simplicity higher than granularity, you should be able to keep them by tweaking HARP, no?

I'll admit I don't really know, it's not as if I've followed the factionalism or have the data so see how it ebbs and flows. But trying to manage more than 2 factions seems silly to me.
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Offline David Johansen

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Re: Cutting the Revision Knot
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2011, 01:01:28 PM »
I think that getting a functional document together without ICE committing to it would make it possible to test the water without driving anyone off.  I'll put something together.  It may take me a little while, I've got far too many irons in the fire but I've got rough notes and a chart already.  I'll do up a couple professions and description and post a link for discussion.  Even if it doesn't fly it will be clearer than my ramblings and help move the discussion forward.

Offline Witchking20k

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Re: Cutting the Revision Knot
« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2011, 02:30:24 PM »
I have a recommendation for stat bonuses (one that I already am using); all skills have a primary & secondary stat; but the secondary stat is only added for Extraordinary Stats (ei. 90+) and they are always eqaul to 1/2 the stat bonus.  So, a character with a 90 (+10) in ST, uld add +5 to all other ST based skills.

As for revision: I think it has to be done.  It's going to upset some people along the way, but the reality is supporting two systems is probably too much right now.  I think as fans we can accept a revision if it means ICEs efforts can be focused on IP material like Shadow World or Genre products etc that would allow ICE to garner more fans and build up the old war chest.  A simplification is in order IMO but one that still keeps the spirit of RM.

I would prefer an Core & Advanced set of rules approach where an interested gamer could purchase (or download a free) basic ruleset and run through a dungeon with a fighter/cleric/thief/mage within a few minutes.  This could be accomplished fairly easily; because the things that make RM are probably never going to change (ie. Critical Table & Spell Lists), but a reworking of character creation & skill development would probably be in order.  I have other ideas, but fear the collective retribution of my peerss, so I won't bother stating them....LOL
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Offline pastaav

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Re: Cutting the Revision Knot
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2011, 02:39:22 PM »
IMHO I must say categories is one of the main reasons why RMSS is superior over RM2. Imagine a long time going campaign when Counterfeiting becomes a major theme at the later parts of the campaign. Without categories you can't model that the thief character can pick up Counterfeiting quickly since he is a master thief. That the master thief can save a few DP over another profession is really not satisfying enough since all characters will have DP to spare at high levels and they will never get enough levels for them being able to get a decent skill bonus.  Maybe you can argue that the profession bonuses of RM2 partly compensated for this problem, but front loaded profession bonuses is another of the major improvements to RMSS over RM2 I don't personally buy that argument.
Additional benefits comes from the simplicity of adding new skills that is trivial with RMSS, but tricky business for RM2.

The critique with the RMSS categories are of course well founded since the great idea of categories was horribly executed in practice. The division of skills over categories is partly retard. A few examples are the skill bloat for the awareness skills that is a well known problem that we have covered on the forum more times than I can count. Other common complaints are that the skills in TechTrade General is not very related to each other. More than handful of categories are pointless, examples would be having two artistic categories, having both TechTrade Professional and TechTrade Vocational, having 3 awareness categories etc). Additionally the progression of categories was badly chosen in that there was a penalty if you had zero ranks making newbies or old RM2 players pretty much bound to be hit by forgetting to buy some category ranks and get very negative feelings about the category system. Having 0 as bonus for 0 ranks and increase the penalty for the skills themselves is a much more sensible solution that is more forgiving to players.

Looking forward I can't see that the categories is really an issue for bringing the edition camps together. In the unofficial RM revision discussions Vroomfogle showed that you can create a scalable point system that allow the costs of both RM2 and RMSS style professions be recreated. There is of course some loss of precision when you codify things, but it was minor stuff and it can be easily be described as increased balance. The categories and category progression would of course be an option so that RM2 users can ignore them.

As for the matter of additive stats or average stats I see no difficulty in having two ways to handle the stats. If using average stats you average the bonuses and otherwise you add them. Of course as a RMSS user I see very little reason in keeping the average stat option. Adding stats is much more easy and gives approximately the same value so why force the hassle of trying to figure out what 25/3 or 15/2 is on the player?

The cost formula for Training packages in RMSS is another major error that slows down development of characters. This has been covereed lots before, but basically the system need to be redone so that you get a flat discount on the real cost instead of a variable discount that depend on the profession costs and how many ranks you have. Still I firmly believe that with a fair costing scheme and some thought how to handle the different skill sets you could create a book that would be of equal use to RMSS and RMC users.

There are also stuff in RMSS that I think are questionable if they should be kept. The complicity of the everyman, restricted and occupational statuses is for instance rather horrible unless you use a character sheet that does have extra columns to track of both the basic value and the mutiplied value. I can see the value of having them in daily play, but also agree that they make things much more complicated than needed.

The only really hard problem is IMHO to handle the variable skill lists in the different editions. The long skill of RMSS is something that some like and some hate. A new joint edition would need to have a minimal skill list can be expanded to RMSS length for those that prefer so, but provided the DP can be calculated from the length of the skill list this should not be a problem.
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Offline Witchking20k

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Re: Cutting the Revision Knot
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2011, 02:46:36 PM »
In a nut shell I don't have the time to commit to RMSS.  I think that has to be a consideration.  There should be a bench mark in time for making a character! ha ha ha ha!
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: Cutting the Revision Knot
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2011, 04:39:33 PM »
Quote
There should be a bench mark in time for making a character!

Regardless of time benchmarks, I think if you can't fit a pretty complete character on both sides of a single sheet (one side if possible), from there on you'll start losing people. It's too intimidating for the newbies.
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Offline David Johansen

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Re: Cutting the Revision Knot
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2011, 05:04:16 PM »
Really the Tech Trade General category's contents are fine.  What's not so good is the use of the standard progression for it.  It really should be combined.

I really prefer three stats per skill because it helps fight stat dumping and the single attribute specialization.  I'd be tempted to suggest three different stats per skill.

Speaking of things that make you recalculate your whole character sheet when you level up, Stat Gain rolls need to be trimmed somehow.  Next to having all your stats change and cascade through, RM2 profession bonuses are a pretty minor issue.

Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Cutting the Revision Knot
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2011, 05:24:53 PM »
I've changed Tech Trade General to combined progression and used Steven Carpenter's 2003 Guild Companion article "Crafting Skilled Professionals" to break out the crafts and the vocational/professional skills into related groupings. That done, the only part of the skill category structure I ponder changing the Armor group into a single category, but I can live with the Armor group.
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Offline arcadayn

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Re: Cutting the Revision Knot
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2011, 07:44:22 PM »
I think Pastaav nailed it on the head.  The category system was flawed in execution, not concept.  A trimming down and reworking would solve the complexity issue and decrease the time needed to create a character.

Some other random thoughts:

There needs to be only one core book. No basic or advanced. Lets face it, Rolemaster is pretty much never going to be someone's first time role playing game.  The new ICE needs to reassert its dominance in the niche of "advanced" RPGs.  How many of us came to RM because we were seeking a decrease in rule's granularity?  I'm guessing few to none. 

There is a big resurgence in toolkit systems.  Everything from original 3LBB D&D (OD&D to the OSR initiated  ;))  to Strands of Fate.  Rolemaster has always been a toolkit system.  This should be exploited by the new ICE.

Related to the first point, I agree that the entirety of Arms Law should be included in the core book(s).  Arms Law is the coolest part of RM.  Don't neuter it like the old ICE did by going to a condensed combat system in the core book.  At the least, the corebook could come with a cd or a code to download all the Arms Law charts as pdfs. That would also help resolve the issue of newbies not knowing/being able to speed up combat by giving players print outs of their weapon charts.

A free character creation program available from the get go.

Enough rambling.

ps - Its nice to be back on the forums!
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Cutting the Revision Knot
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2011, 08:34:52 PM »
In a nut shell I don't have the time to commit to RMSS.  I think that has to be a consideration.  There should be a bench mark in time for making a character! ha ha ha ha!

I'm not sure what you mean by not having the time to commit to RMSS.  Are you talking about learning the system in general or just creating a character?  Creating a character doesn't seem to be any more difficult in one version or another to me.  RM2 has just as much (more really) optional additional materials than RMSS ever got the chance to publish before revision to RMFRP or by the time RMFRP was effectively abandoned.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Cutting the Revision Knot
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2011, 08:55:46 PM »
I think Pastaav nailed it on the head.  The category system was flawed in execution, not concept.  A trimming down and reworking would solve the complexity issue and decrease the time needed to create a character.
Huh, that's interesting.  How many RM2 players actually think categories are workable if brought back into a better focus?


Quote
There needs to be only one core book. No basic or advanced. Lets face it, Rolemaster is pretty much never going to be someone's first time role playing game.  The new ICE needs to reassert its dominance in the niche of "advanced" RPGs.  How many of us came to RM because we were seeking a decrease in rule's granularity?  I'm guessing few to none.
Speaking from the standpoint a company would likely look at it, I can say that I do think there needs to be an effort to make a toned down version.  This is really what MERP used to accomplish and it is gone.  You also don't have the large potential customer base of experienced younger players looking to find the next great RPG that will pull them away from D&D.  There has been a serious gap in table top gamers over the last couple decades for a couple primary reasons (CCG's and MMORPG's).  The active fan base has diminished and there has been little in the way of replacements.  Still, I think D&D players are the primary target.  Actually, in my opinion, the existing RM users should be target number one, D&D players target number two, and new players target number three (Online or Card gamers).

It would be nice if there was a genre that was popular with youngerish people today, which did not require a license, that could be turned into an expansion or setting (although likely not the MAIN one) book for RM.  I have one primary idea there that I think has promise, but I'm going to keep it under wraps for now and see what people can come up with.  Who knows, maybe some day I'll submit a proposal for it. :)


Quote
Rolemaster has always been a toolkit system.  This should be exploited by the new ICE.

I agree. If we ever see a full new version I think it could do well to have a modular theme to it. Partially because this is what helped develop the popularity of the original RM with existing D&D users. Might be worth a shot to try and repeat the GOOD part of RM's history.


Quote
Related to the first point, I agree that the entirety of Arms Law should be included in the core book(s).  Arms Law is the coolest part of RM.  Don't neuter it like the old ICE did by going to a condensed combat system in the core book.  At the least, the corebook could come with a cd or a code to download all the Arms Law charts as pdfs. That would also help resolve the issue of newbies not knowing/being able to speed up combat by giving players print outs of their weapon charts.

I'm more inclined to say keep Arms Law seperate for a number of reasons.  Hate to say it, but it will make more money as a separate book - and we are talking about a business here.  However... I don't want a huge main book.  I also think a huge main book will scare people off.  I like having a separate book to be able to thumb through regardless.  I also like the idea of potentially using a separate Arms Law book to provide optional combat system material.


Quote
A free character creation program available from the get go.

Absofreakinlutely.  Not only would it be welcome in general, but this is the computer age and it almost a requirement regardless.
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Offline Tolen

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Re: Cutting the Revision Knot
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2011, 09:51:48 PM »
I'd like to weigh in on this discussion, even though I don't post here much.  I lurk a lot, though.

In my neck of the woods, folks are pretty open to trying new things.  It's not the complexity of the game that concerns most of the people I talk to.  What it comes down to is getting them to suspend their DnD games long enough to try.  No one is interested because of the Current Big Thing. 

As for myself, I love RM. I've read all of the core rulebooks for each edition, as well as HARP, Middle Earth, Spacemaster, and even the cyberpunk book.  And all of them have something good to take away.  But I keep coming back to RMSS.  Flaws and all, it still does what I most want.

It's the flaws, though, that have me interested in this discussion.  I'm reasonably quick at character generation, for myself.  With all of the bells and whistles, including Talent Law.  But things slow down horribly when I have to teach someone else.  Because there are so many steps, and each step has so many choices.  Add in Talents and Flaws, and it takes even longer.  Most people are okay with it, once they get to understand it, once they become familiar with it, but it's pretty overwhelming for a newbie.  I think things need to be scaled back, for beginners.

Fewer categories would be a start.  I agree that some of the categories seem pretty strange (like two artistic categories).  A lot of the skills are so similar in scope and effect that they really don't need to be under separate categories. And honestly, Everyman, Occupational, and Restricted skills come up so rarely as to be pointless in the games I've played in.  Better, I think to find some other way to benefit those skills on the few occasions that they do come up.

What I don't think needs to happen to simplify things for beginners is what happened in RMFRP.  Taking some of the skill categories out, and then having to spend a large chunk of space in future books to add them back in seems pointless, and only intended to force people to buy the next book.

I like how stats are assigned in RMC (both temp and potential), but I dislike the way skills are purchased.  As a player, I love to take advantage of the talents and flaws, but as a DM, all I see them adding is extra paperwork and munchkinism.

If I see a revised RM on the shelves, I'll buy it if it is complete out of the box, no hiding chunks in other books, like RMFRP.  (And I don't mean I'm against new professions, etc. being in future books, just that I don't want to open the next book and find Skill X, which was left out for space reasons.)  Instead of a combat chart for every single possible weapon, perhaps just one per category, with slight modifications applied to the results to vary the weapons themselves.  Four or five core races, a few representative professions, and all the spell lists you need for those professions.  Maybe as a boxed set, or slipcase set.

Finally, as regards software, I don't think it's a necessary project.  If the number of steps and the amount of information needed can be reduced without going too far in the direction of 'simple', keeping paper forms, to me, is preferable.  That does not mean, however, that I don't look around to see if there is something available (I google every RPG I play in to see what options are out there).  I just don't think it needs to subtract resources from the revision itself.

I think I'm done rambling.  I may think of more later.  Just remember that RM around here isn't as difficult a sell as it might be elsewhere, which means that not everyone turns it down for it's complexity.  Most often, RM just falls under "never heard of it."  Maybe that's your biggest hurdle.
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