Topic: TWC and full parry

[Marc R]

The posting over here:

http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=10620.msg134593#msg134593

Got me thinking on this.

Assuming you have +50 in both weapons and TWC, but a magical Broadsword +20 and a magical dagger +10. . .

It's easy if you still attack. . .like you OB/DB for 20/30:

+30 DB, not doubled, counted once for both weapons.

20 (skill) + 20 (magic) = 40 OB Broadsword.
20 (skill) + 10 (magic) - 20 (off hand) = 10 OB dagger.

But, two oddities pop up

First, if you go full parry, and get the "Shield Bonus" for the weapons, does the -20 off hand penalty from the dagger preclude you from going more than 30 DB for "full parry"?

Second, if you go full parry for the shield bonus. . .do you get +5 for the sword, and +5 for the dagger for +10, or is the +5 added to both weapons giving you +55 and +35, before the "not doubled, counted once for both weapons" is applied, giving you just the +55?

[markc]

 IMHO the +5 goes into the total before you split it off. So full parry 50 in TWC, 50 in both weapons no ambidexterity. No natural DB of any kind.
Note: More ranks in off hand weapon to bring up its skill score to 50. The -20 off hand mod is applied to the skill so you do not have to remember it when in the middle of the game.

1) OB to work with is 50
2) Decide to go full DB now OB/DB is 0/55
3) Attack with weapon in primary hand is 0 attack with the weapon in the secondary hand is 0.




 In the above example you are using the swords magic as offense only. I thought it was ruled that the material mods, magic mods and quality mods could be used as OB or DB?
 If so then sword OB is 50+20= 70, dagger is 50+10=60
Q1) The TWC skill is IMHO where the problem is, is does it get a bonus from the weapons material or magical mods.


 Proposed Answer: IMHO the TWC skill would get the lower of the two if at all. In my game in the past I have not provided any bonus to the TWC skill for material, magical or quality bonus's. So I guess my answer is 50 for TWC skill +10 as the lowest of the two bonus's for 60 OB for both weapons.


One point that was brought up in the past was that TWC should change as per the rules in the CC. IMHO this is a good decision to make, and deciding on if TWC allows an attack to be more damaging or two actual attacks at a penalty. Helps a lot in trying to solve the problem you are talking about.


MDC

[rdanhenry]

Checking the description of TWC on p. 162 of RMSR, I am of the opinion that the -20 does not apply, since the skill already assumes the existence of a style where one weapon is used "normally" in the off-hand. You get the off-hand penalty if you switch the hands you use the weapons in... rapier/short sword versus short sword/rapier. The penalty for off-hand use appear on p. 96 under "One-Handed Weapons" where it talks about use of a single weapon, but does not appear on the same page under "Two One-handed Weapons". The specific rule on p.162 is that "The OB for each weapon attack is equal to the skill bonus for the Two Weapon Fighting skill for the combination of those two weapons." (emphasis added)

[rdanhenry]

Note that TWC is capped by skill ranks in the weapons, not skill bonus as some posts have seemed to imply. Also, it uses different stats than weapon skills, so it is possible someone could have a better OB with TWC than with either weapon alone. (I do not think this is unrealistic.) This is really the only case where full parry TWC represents an advantage. Otherwise, one would full parry with the higher single-weapon OB and use the second weapon as a "shield".

This is for RMSS. The situation with RM2 was not so clear when it came to two-weapon fighting.

[Marc R]

I just stated that by some happenstance all applicable skills were equal to avoid that entering the equation.

I think the off hand penalty still does apply to the off hand in TWC RMC, but I'll need to check the RMSS references. You are indeed correct, if the dagger is trained in the off hand in RMSS it gets no penalty, unless used in the primary hand, it specifically says so on p162.

Good catch on the magical bonuses MarkC, yes, that was off in the 2nd example, so it should be:

First, if you go full parry, and get the "Shield Bonus" for the weapons, does the -20 off hand penalty from the dagger preclude you from going more than 40 DB for "full parry"?

Second, if you go full parry for the shield bonus. . .do you get +5 for the sword, and +5 for the dagger for +10, or is the +5 added to both weapons giving you +75 and +45, before the "not doubled, counted once for both weapons" is applied, giving you just the +75?

I'm a little iffy on your answer Markc, if only because if there were two attackers, and you designated one weapon to parry each of them, you would be:

RMC +75 (sword) vs one, and +45 (dagger) vs the other at full parry, so even if the TWC "parry overlap on one foe" applied, it'd still be at least the +75 for the sword.

in RMSS it would be +55 (sword) and +45 (dagger) for engaging two foes.

The reason I ask about it perhaps being +80, is that if the person above were to go full parry with just the sword, they would get the shield bonus of the object in their off hand anyway. . .which would give +50 (sword skill) + 20 (magic) +5 (sword shield bonus) +5 (Dagger Shield bonus). . .which makes it strange that it would be worse in TWC than if using the sword solo with the dagger just offering the "passive off hand" shield bonus of +5. Per the note about passive shield bonus from the off hand, +80 is indeed what you'd get from the RMSS version vs one attacker, since the dagger bonus is lower, or you could choose to get +75 in exchange for rolling two +0 attacks.

Although, it might not actually work that way. . .since you're not allowed to devote negative OB to an attack in split, in RMSS TWC vs one attacker trying for full defense with the above numbers, you might get stuck with:

70 (total bonus) Sword 10/60 split, not full parry, no shield bonus +10 OB attack.
60 (total bonus) dagger 10/60 split, full parry +5 shield bonus +0 OB attack.

65 DB from the higher dagger value.

[Ecthelion]

First, if you go full parry, and get the "Shield Bonus" for the weapons, does the -20 off hand penalty from the dagger preclude you from going more than 30 DB for "full parry"?

Yes, it does. If you still want the option of making two attack while parrying as much as possible with that option, then you are restricted by the lower of the two OBs. So in most cases it is the better choice to use only the OB of the primary weapon for parrying and forfeit the second attack (which most likely be of no use anyways with +0 OB).

Second, if you go full parry for the shield bonus. . .do you get +5 for the sword, and +5 for the dagger for +10, or is the +5 added to both weapons giving you +55 and +35, before the "not doubled, counted once for both weapons" is applied, giving you just the +55?

I think the +5 to DB should only be granted for weapons that attack with +0 OB (not counting material bonus) in the round. So only the dagger in this example.

[Ecthelion]

Note that TWC is capped by skill ranks in the weapons, not skill bonus as some posts have seemed to imply.

Not that it matters much for this discussion, but the MAC defines this differently and uses a cap on the skill bonus. IMHO this (later) ruling is the better choice.

[Ecthelion]

Checking the description of TWC on p. 162 of RMSR, I am of the opinion that the -20 does not apply, since the skill already assumes the existence of a style where one weapon is used "normally" in the off-hand.

We handled it this way for quite a long time since RoCo2 has IIRC a similar description. Only later, I think here in the forums, I heard that the -20 do apply. But I must admit that I can't find a reference now.

[Cory Magel]

When you get into actions where there is a skill limitation, like TWC or Mounted Combat: I then take your skill only, cap that where the rule indicates (the lowest of the various required skills) and add any spell, item or other non-skill bonuses on top of that.

It would truly suck if you spent half your characters life looking for a powerful magic item (lets say a saddle) that, once found, would not give you any benefit due to combined skill caps.

[Marc R]

(Hence the reason I made all the bonuses equal up front, as it adds complexity to what was already a complex mess.)

[markc]

 IIRC (I will get to my books after football today) in RMSS you have the following skill offhand weapon, skill primary hand weapon and TWC weapon primary, weapon secondary. You add the -20 into your off hand weapon skill, if this skill is less than your other skills you use that for 2WC IIRC again.


MDC

[Cory Magel]

I could be mistaken, but I believe if you have a weapon skill for each hand individually and the TWC skill you don't take the -20 penalty. (Or maybe I'm just thinking that is due to taking ambidexterity?).

[Old Man]

I could be mistaken, but I believe if you have a weapon skill for each hand individually and the TWC skill you don't take the -20 penalty. (Or maybe I'm just thinking that is due to taking ambidexterity?).

That's what I recall for TWC in 2nd Ed (which basically is 2 weapon skills added -  not a third skill like in RMSS). You don't get the -20. You get a -25 though if you drop one of the two weapons in the combo ...

Regarding an earlier comment, if you limit a player to one "shield" bonus (the largest), I can see allowing odd combos like shield/shield, shield/sai, etc. Trade offensive for better defense.

[Marc R]

I think vs one target you get the largest parry DB (they should be the same, but in some odd situations they won't be). . .but that the "Shield bonuses" stack.

Vs two foes, they apply in full to each foe, respectively. All Weapon A bonuses vs foe A, and All Weapon B bonuses vs foe B.

[Old Man]

I think vs one target you get the largest parry DB (they should be the same, but in some odd situations they won't be). . .but that the "Shield bonuses" stack.

Vs two foes, they apply in full to each foe, respectively. All Weapon A bonuses vs foe A, and All Weapon B bonuses vs foe B.

I had thought RM was trying to avoid making weapon-specific type assignments (the round being a series of blows), so that the parry may be divided between two foes but not necessarily come from a specific weapon ...

[Marc R]

If using broadsword/dagger in TWC, you get to roll one attack on the Broadsword table, and one on the Dagger table.  .

If you chose to fight two people in one round, you roll the Main Gauche on one, and the Broadsword on the other. . ..you can't apply half the Broadsword result to each, and half the Main Gauche to each.

This is because attacks, and parry are declared on one opponent. . .so when you start the round you state "My character Jimmy-Two-hands is going to go 40 DB parry with TWC Broadsword/Main Gauche and he's going to attack Billy-Three-Fingers with his broadsword, and Able-The-Hammer with his Main Gauche."

In both versions the rule is "You must reduce both attacks equally the same parry DB"

In RoCo2 it states you can only get the parry of 1 weapon on one target, but on two each opponant can be parried against equally.

In RMSS is says you can indeed put the DB split as you see fit. . .

The complication would really only arise if you went full parry with two weapons of differing shield value. . .like if you had TWC Broadsword and Main Gauche and went full parry. . .I would think that in that instance, the shield bonus of +5 for the sword would apply to the sword attack target, and the shield bonus of +15 for the Main Gauche would apply to the MG target, rather than getting a +20 to DB vs both attackers for that shield value. I see it making sense to get the stacked shield value if TWC vs one target.

That based on the logic that you need to assign shield value to an attacker, so it's not regular parry DB in the same sense. . .I guess the RMSS text might mean that you can just toss the shield value into the DB pool and divy it up as you chose. . .I guess the RoCo2 text could be read to say you should add it up and split it, applying 10 DB of shield value to each foe. . .but both seem kinda weird to me.

But how often would that come up? (I can't recall it ever coming up).

On the attack side, if the Broadsword is +20 Quality, the MG is normal, if you make a 25/25 attack on two separate foes. . .I always thought it worked as:

Broadsword +25+20=45 OB attack
MG +25=+25 OB attack

Not that you'd make a +35 OB attack with each.

i.e. the non skill characteristics of the two weapons stick with the respective weapon and apply to the target selected for that weapon.

I could be mistaken, but that seems to make sense.

[markc]

 I think Etchelion, provided the same info above but here it is from the MAC page 27,
1) TWC must be developed for each 2 weapon combo (eg ss/ha rapier/dagger etc). The OB for each weapon attack is equal to the skill bonus for the TWC fighting skill combo of those two weapons or the individual weapon OB's, which ever is the lesser bonus.


Against 1 Opponent: There is no negative attack mod.
Against 2 Opponents: There is a -20 to each attack. Foes cannot have any positional bonus on attacker.
Parry or Special Attack: You must reduce the OB of each attack by the same amount. Against 1 opp the user increases his parry by the amount, against 2 opponents his parry must be split between the two opponents.  Note (I underlined text)
Using Off Hand: The TWC is developed for specific hands and if used if the oposite hands the user receives a -20 off hand penalty.


Note: Some para-phrasing above.
Note 2: Some Combat Arts special abilities change the above IIRC such as the ability that lets you attack foes farther apart.


Thoughts:
1) I thought in terms of ease of use that it was ruled somewhere that you applied your full OB to each opponent and did not split it. But I am wrong according to the underlined portion above.
2) Note you only get to parry two foes IF you have TWC as per page 92 RMSS you can only parry the foe you attack.
3) I could see a special rule that said you could parry a foe with the shield bonus only and split your OB for your weapon against the foe you attack but IMHO this would be just a TWC weapon/shield. Which is very different than just using a shield passively. It also IMHO is the difference between a trained weapon/shield user vs a self trained shield user.


Lord Miller:
 On your OB calculations most people add it all up on there sheets and use the total amount as their OB to split. I asked the same question and it was proposed for simplicity sake and a reason that it is not done the way you proposed above. ie the material, magical or quality bonus can be used for either offence or defense not just offence.


 On special parry rules: IMHO you have to decide if the extra DB gain from using the weapon as a shield is a modifier to attack such as a positional modifier or does it modify the person OB for that weapon before you compair it to the other two skills, ie the other weapon and TWC.
 If it is a positional mod then it is applied to that foe only and if it is a weapon mod then it is looked at with the other two weapon skills before you split your OB.




 IMHO a free set of combat style rules that would replace the combat skills in the books, would clear up most of the problems above. But the main problem is trying to get one that will fit both RMC and RMSS. 


 Please feel free to contact me if you have any other Q's about the above.
MDC

[rdanhenry]

It occurs to me that it might be best to average the OB bonuses of the weapons used in TWC. After all, while I must assign a given weapon to each roll as the one that gets in an actually effective blow, I'll have been using both throughout the exchange and even with two foes making some strikes/parries that cross my body. Obviously effects like extra crits need to be kept with the correct weapon, but it might be simpler and just as reasonable an abstraction from the complexities of actual combat to average OB to keep OB the same for each weapon and avoid things like not being able to full parry because my weapon bonuses don't match.

[Marc R]

I concur it's strange.

It likely would be best to allow "full parry" to just assume both weapons are reduced 100%. . .it's not actually that exceptional. . .considering that if you go full attack with a +10 dagger and a +20 broadsword, it's not like the logic forces them into a parity where the broadsword must be reduced by 10. . .just because the rule says "reduce by the same amount of parry" it creates that odd part, but it seems contrary to the intention.

[markc]

 Yes I think there are a number of problem areas when you get down and look closely. The system was designed for simplicity but then things get added that cause problems with the original system. IE 1 weapon combat is simple, TWC causes some problems, Material's and other bonuses cause problems if you do not add it directly to the skill, parry bonus cause problems with TWC skill if different and magic weapon abilities cause some problems in TWC full parry mode.


MDC