Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => Topic started by: ubiquitousrat on February 27, 2011, 04:23:54 AM
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Hello!
First, an admission of newbieness here. *waves*
I've been roleplaying for a lifetime but now, at 40, I have begun the process of finally revisiting and designing a campaign world for fantasy gaming. At Christmas I got hold of RM Classic, got excited and started to recruit players from my 4e group.
I've hit a snag. One of the most enthusiastic players has accessed the RM Classic material and expressed confusion and the sentiment of 'it seems quite complicated'. At the same time, I've acquired RMFRP for evaluation as well as HARP.
I'd appreciate some help and advice. In my heart of hearts, I want to try Rolemaster. It's the game I loved back in the 1980s and I know it'll suit my setting ( http://mykovnia.com ). The problem is, given the experience of my players being limited to d20, I am not sure how to help them make the transition to a more detailed and open system.
Questions in my mind:
- Should I keep it simple and offer them HARP? I don't want to, but...
- Which RM? Classic seems less complex but FRP seems more coherent.
- How do I introduce the system in a way that they can find accessible?
Any thoughts?
Cheers
Che
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Greetings
I don't think HARP will help much. I tried some of my players on HARP when they were only into D&D (3.5 really) and they were put off by character generation.
If you used RMC with whatever add ons you wanted from RMFRP and used pre-gen characters I think you could get them into the gameplay pretty easily. You could ask them in advance what sort of characters they wanted and give them a choice.
Regards
Edward
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Well, given the abstract simplicity of the D20 systems (yes, I know there is another thread on these forums that states otherwise) and the perceived complexity of Rolemaster in all of it's incarnations, I can definitly see where you may hit a snag. I have to admit, I have never had the need to persuade my players to play Rolemaster, in fact the difficulty at times (as a short break ;)) is to persuade them to play something else.
I can't help but feel that the complexity of the system isn't going to be your biggest hurdle, I don't know your players like you do, but I have been around a fair while, like you. I think your major issue is going to be getting your players into a system that they don't yet know how to turn to their favour (that's putting it mildly).
Personally, in your shoes, I would go for the most complex system, they are usually the most richly detailed. I'm a RM2 fa myself, so I can't comment too much on the newrer systems.
Now, how would I do it...? I remember almost 20 years ago, when trying to get my wife into a little roleplay ;), I went straight for the kill, literally. In my own opinion the combat and spell systems are the show-peices of RM2, so I created a character, a Fighter, and drew up a little scenario than included an arena. With easy to beat opponents, and a couple of healing potions in the sidelines, I put the character through it's paces in combat. Seeing the full glory of critical hit tables, fairly simplistic maths and the results of a few fights can do wonders to sell Rolemaster, and I think, given the very abstract nature of roll-a-dice, add-a-number, see-if-you-hit, roll-more-dice-for-damage, add-a-number, rince and repeart until hitpoints = 0 in herent in D20 systems, Rolemaster comes out tops.
What I am trying to say, is that you should show your players how much fun RM can be and how the system itself can give a much more rewarding experience than plain, old dice roll-number games. You could even try selecting one or two individuals, show them the ropes and get them interested. Give them an easy time of combat, let them have some fun and then, like some kind of crack dealer, once you have them hooked, get them to reel the other players in.
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@Amethyst Rage: I like the cut of your jib, so to speak. Many thanks!
I think perhaps you are right - I need to share with them what I love about RM. That is the combat flavour and feeling, the freedom of character design, and the spell system.
Step One could be to run an Arena Pit Fight scenario with pre-gen warriors, last one standing wins. I would hope to showcase combat, criticals, and the general difference in feel from RM. I would make this a scenario from within the setting too, to keep it grounded.
Step Two could be to run a prison break scenario from the gladiatorial training camp, with maybe a Mage character included to help showcase the magic.
Step Three would be to move the players into creating their own characters. We are already concepting them, and keeping it story focused, and I could them help them to design the RM hero they would want.
From there... well, into the campaign I guess.
How does that sound?
Suggestions welcome.
Game on?
:)
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Not so sure about your step one...with a single winner there are many losers. No matter how 'mature', no one likes losing, and the system could be blamed...you definitly don't want that to happen. Make sure the players win, but of course, don't make it look like you're letting them ;)
Perhaps you could also go for distinct skills or attributes of your pregens too? Make them feel very different despite being the same profession? This could serve to illustrate the versatility of RM.
Step two and step 3...perfect :D
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Really good observation on the Arena fight. Maybe I set up the three players with a three-hero team against a rival gladiator team. The idea of very different skills and abilities appeals too.
Any suggestions on hero types? I was thinking a Hoplite Fighter type, a Rogue with stealthy style, and maybe another Fighter type with a different weapon mix... Maybe a ranged guy or something.
This is really helpful. Thanks!
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I generally run some test combats, one on one, one on many (since I use a house rule that stats a person DB goes down by 20 for every attack besides the 1st attack) and one that includes missile/magic fire.
It lets the players know what to expect and you can be sneaky about it by having ti be a dream sequence or some such thing.
MDC
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Well...as I mentioned previously, I'm a RM2 man, so I'm not sure which professions your system has on offer, ut if you were going to mix up the professions, per haps a 'tank' fighter (high AT, shield, etc), a DPS fighter (2-H weapons, high strength) and a Warrior Monk (Martial Arts, high Qu adn Adrenal Defense i.e., DB). You could also stick a (semi?) spell user in the mix, with 'Heal 1-10' for added illustration.
Dunno for sure, the world is your play-thing :D
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Thanks guys. I guess I will read thru RMFRP but my instinct is to use RM Classic, which (as I understand it) is a reworked RM2.
Game on!
;)
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I too have dealt with the "it's so complex" syndrome. I explained the system is very detailed and allows for a ton of character customization and growth. I helped my players make their characters, and then ran them through a very simple scenario. I got them use to making skill rolls, and we had two simple combats. The critical charts were a big hit. The group loved it.
I would suggest making copies of crit charts(or printing them if you have the pdf) and organizing them in a GM binder for quick reference (if you have not done so already). I also printed out everyone's spell lists for their characters. This way people did not have to fight over books and I could quickly look up crit charts. This helped keep the game fairly quickly. I hope this helps.
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Step 1: Go over the rules, read through them, and be sure you yourself are all set and ready to explain things. . .tag pages, or make a list of likely look ups, so when someone asks a question, you're set to answer.
Step 2: Either do pre-generated characters, or do characters via Q&A with you doing all the work, so you can skip over the character generation process and get right into play. You can allow more free form character generation next time around, after your players have gone through a couple level ups with these starter characters and grok the process and what things are worth better.
Step 3: Start off simple. . .don't jump into a freewheeling combat with 30 combatants, spell casters, missile fire into and out of melee a wagon load of clowns and harrying moves by mounted combatants at first. . .start with straightforward, simple combats and work your way up into more and more complex instances.
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I'd point out that combats just aren't grindy. They're scary and they normally end with body parts in bad shape.
I think I'd probably start with RMX.
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Yes go over healing and injuries.
MDC
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One of the first things our gaming group did when moving from D&D to RM was run about 6 hours of test fights. This, in my opinion, helps immensely in not only understanding the basic rules of the system (whichever you go with) but also some important things players will need to learn about how combats play out.
Parry, stuns, criticals... there are some important lessons to be learned about RM combat that really need to happen before they start putting their characters in harms way.
Have them create whatever characters they think they want to play then run those characters through a series of fights, ideally at various levels against various types of enemies. Make sure you throw some things at them that are immune to things like Stun and Bleed (trolls and skeletons come to mind). In D&D these two creatures really aren't all that dangerous... in RM they are.
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I would suggest making copies of crit charts(or printing them if you have the pdf) and organizing them in a GM binder for quick reference (if you have not done so already). I also printed out everyone's spell lists for their characters. This way people did not have to fight over books and I could quickly look up crit charts. This helped keep the game fairly quickly. I hope this helps.
You could go even further and print the weapon tables individual to each character, if you're fingers don't find the appropriate attack table / Crits result / spell list as it does with some of who have lived and breathed these systems for decades, it will help you too.
[snip] Make sure you throw some things at them that are immune to things like Stun and Bleed (trolls and skeletons come to mind). In D&D these two creatures really aren't all that dangerous... in RM they are.
Skeletons are a classic, I have used these myself in such situations. I have also used the Giant Porcupine...it was a mistake, that one :-[
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Find a way to stress how any PC can do ANYTHING: no limit on lock picking or tracking or what weapon can be used or even spells learned (for this, look atthe spell list and create an encounter were its end results in a spell list magically learned to level 5. They may have to develop popwer points if they have none from stat mods, but the uniqueness of it will sell).
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In D&D these two creatures really aren't all that dangerous... in RM they are.
Find a way to stress how any PC can do ANYTHING: no limit on lock picking or tracking or what weapon can be used or even spells learned (for this, look atthe spell list and create an encounter were its end results in a spell list magically learned to level 5. They may have to develop popwer points if they have none from stat mods, but the uniqueness of it will sell).
Or if you're up for the work, combine the two by handing them a "monster" that develops as a character race, like Greater Orcs. I have had a single (count 'em, one) Orc "paladin" (only not of one of the nice Gods, of course) put an entire party of 6 PCs on the run, all by his lonesome.
;)
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3 words:
Orcish evil ranger. :o
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This is all good and helpful stuff, people, and I must say THANK YOU!
I have three players interested in the arena scenario now. I am thinking an opener of a single Orc (Uruk in my setting, thank you Mr Tolkien). I can imagine the "hey, this will be easy" turning into a shock. When they best him, perhaps I can unleash 3 skeletons. And, having survived those, then maybe a final challenge.
Find a way to stress how any PC can do ANYTHING: no limit on lock picking or tracking or what weapon can be used or even spells learned (for this, look atthe spell list and create an encounter were its end results in a spell list magically learned to level 5. They may have to develop popwer points if they have none from stat mods, but the uniqueness of it will sell).
Forgive my ignorance here, but I thought in RM you could only cast a spell of your level or less? Level 5 spells would require level 5 heroes, right?
I imagine I am mistaken, but best to ask.
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I don't think it's specifically written anywhere in the rules, but it's called overcasting. If you look at the spell casting maneuver chart, you can cast spells above your level, but you take heavy penalties, which in the end cause you troubles on the spell failure table.
So you CAN do it, but do you really WANT to?
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This is all good and helpful stuff, people, and I must say THANK YOU!
I have three players interested in the arena scenario now. I am thinking an opener of a single Orc (Uruk in my setting, thank you Mr Tolkien). I can imagine the "hey, this will be easy" turning into a shock. When they best him, perhaps I can unleash 3 skeletons. And, having survived those, then maybe a final challenge.
Find a way to stress how any PC can do ANYTHING: no limit on lock picking or tracking or what weapon can be used or even spells learned (for this, look atthe spell list and create an encounter were its end results in a spell list magically learned to level 5. They may have to develop popwer points if they have none from stat mods, but the uniqueness of it will sell).
Forgive my ignorance here, but I thought in RM you could only cast a spell of your level or less? Level 5 spells would require level 5 heroes, right?
I imagine I am mistaken, but best to ask.
It is called over casting and requires a SCSM or ESF check, depending on what version/optional rules you are using (over casting was originally an optional rule back in the day, one of the RMSS "improvements" was making over casting RAW).
However, giving a treasure that cannot be fully utilized until additional levels are gained is ok, and players tend to like them. Gives them something to look forward too.
When the prize is given, it can be random, or if you prefer, link the list to some trait of the PC.
Note that such a gift can have additional limitations. If you give an essence list to non spell user, they normally wear armor: built in limitations. Menatlism would be the freindliest. Me, I would base the list on their highest spell stat, Em, Pr and In. This would probably guarantee at least a few pp, with or without pp development.
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Pay attention to what they complain about or wish they could do in 4th. While I have never played it, nor have the desire too, when playing 3.5 I get a cool idea then have to tell myself that there is no spell mastery so never mind. I would stress the magic system rather than combat. While the complexity may be a turn off just keep reminding them that there arent 75 charts, there it is really only one chart over and over.
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Pay attention to what they complain about or wish they could do in 4th.
My guys complain about how geared 4e is towards combat encounters, unless the GM chooses to re-work the XP system. They comment on how skills are not really too useful, are too general, and how there is no real difference between magical and warrior powers.
I think RM offers more exciting combat, the integration of skills into the game even in a combat encounter, and a broader XP system as default. Also magic is separate and different to combat skill, or any other ability. Choices are wider, and more granular.
When we run the encounters I think the tables will seem odd... But it's still the same amount of dice-rolling and the pace is only slower if/when players spend time thinking about their decisions and actions. In 4e the decision is "which power do I use?" but in RM there is more subtlety. Overall, RM expects players to describe and respond to an ongoing flow of action.
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My guys complain about how geared 4e is towards combat encounters, unless the GM chooses to re-work the XP system. They comment on how skills are not really too useful, are too general, and how there is no real difference between magical and warrior powers.
You can do a lot with that just by your choice of scenario. The one really skilled orc I mentioned above? Meet him way high in the mountains...in a pass... in heavy fog, or perhaps rain.... with a chance of snow later.
The exact same monster set in a different environment completely alters what skills are needed/useful to survive the encounter.
If they get nowhere with the orc (the heaviness of the fog and the beginning of the snowstorm decree it a "draw") and flee to the ruins of an old mining town to wait out the blizzard, and then fall through a rotten floor into an old mine and have to find their way out... well now the "combat with the orc" (that never happened) has become utterly inconsequential in terms of who gets XP, and for what.
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Warning: You can overplay that hand. My players have gotten to where they are no longer surprised by the most dangerous "monsters" being the terrain and the weather. So, useful as it is, try not to go to that well too often, it'll start to run dry.