Topic: Shield Bash Damage

[Zhaleskra]

I wasn't sure if any of the topics I looked up on the forum search had the answer for HARP, so I'm starting this one.

Neither the HARP Core book, nor Martial Law state the damage a shield bash does. For critical type, I would assume Crushing. I am wondering if the size of the critical is dependent on the size of the shield?

I have included swashbuckler(s) who use(s) the Rapier & Buckler weapon & shield style for my con one-shot.

Thank you.

[GrumpyOldFart]

I don't claim to know either, but I'd guess it would vary with the size of the shield, although in fairness I could see the mass of the person using it being a factor... I say that, that depends on to what extent "shield bash" has "shield charge" mixed in with it.

Buckler/Target/Sm. Round = Small
Vast majority of shield types = Medium
Wall shield, scutum, "barn door" = Large

I could see a giant with a scutum to his scale being a Huge, but not much else. I could see a pixie with almost any type of shield to his scale being a Tiny, but not much else. A Norman kite shield might be on the borderline between Medium and Large, as well as the Greek/Trojan oversize roundshields.

[Ecthelion]

Personally I would not allow shield bash to deliver large damage. That would be more damage than a longsword could deliver. So my suggestions would be:
Buckler/Target/Sm. Round = Tiny
Vast majority of shield types = Small
Wall shield, scutum, "barn door" = Medium

[Zhaleskra]

Well, using Weapon & Shield, they use the Untrained DB for the shield's protection while they're using it as a weapon. The trained bonus is what they use for the attack.

Because this is an intentional, violent, action, I'd say they should get their St+Ag too.

I'm with Ecthelion on limiting damage type to Medium. Unless of course, it's a gigantic creature's shield. Which will not be the case in my one-shot.

So, as my swashbucklers have Rapier & Buckler, it will be Tiny Crush, OB 15+St+Ag.

Which now raises the question of fumble range for shield bashing.

[GrumpyOldFart]

Personally I would not allow shield bash to deliver large damage. That would be more damage than a longsword could deliver.

...that depends on to what extent "shield bash" has "shield charge" mixed in with it.

Put the mass of a 250 lb. guy wearing 50 lbs. of armor into the equation, I could see a shield "bash" having more kinetic energy than a longsword. Ask anyone who's been on the receiving end of a "column charge". However, most of it I'd expect to transfer as unbalancing/knockdown rather than crush.

[Zhaleskra]

I think both HARP Core and Martial Law describe the Shield Bash action as a "Shield Punch".

[GMLovlie]

I was certain I read about that somewhere, but apparently I was wrong… strange. Although "Shield Bash" is both listed in the core book and ML as a combat action, although there is nothing about the size of the attack that I can find skimming through the books…

Anyways, the suggestion about tiny-small-medium crush critical range (unless the shield is spiked, in which case I would go for tiny to small puncture) from smallest to largest shield is one I agree with.

[GMLovlie]

of course, unbalancing/knockdown could be used as well… BRP uses Knockback as special damage, unless its spiked, in which case it is Impale… so perhaps unbalancing/knockdown would serve better than crush…

[GMLovlie]

seeing that unbalancing is considered the equivalent to marital arts sweeps (flavour text and all), in the core book and ML at least, then perhaps the Impact critical would work well too? or one could just go for crush… although I think I would test Impact…

[Ecthelion]

Put the mass of a 250 lb. guy wearing 50 lbs. of armor into the equation, I could see a shield "bash" having more kinetic energy than a longsword.

Please don't forget that for the kinetic energy the velocity of the object influences the energy by the power of 2 while it rises only linear with increased mass. So the same strong guy that bashes with the shield can generate probably more kinetic energy by hacking with his lighter longsword at much higher speed. And the sword additionally has a sharp edge. Therefore I still suggest to limit the damage cap of shield bashes to a maximum of Medium.

Just my 2 cents

[Zhaleskra]

Please don't forget that for the kinetic energy the velocity of the object influences the energy by the power of 2 while it rises only linear with increased mass. So the same strong guy that bashes with the shield can generate probably more kinetic energy by hacking with his lighter longsword at much higher speed.

Thus explaining why my Swashbuckler(s) Rapier OB for Rapier & Buckler is 74 (94 when not using this style), and Buckler Bash bonus with the same style is only 35.

[The Dude]

Funny that Ecthelion and Grumpy are discussing this... as in my game (where they both play on Real Roleplaying), a Shield bash was just used...
I should have read this before making a judgement call.

[GMLovlie]

Ah! I found it!

Where:
Shield bash size modifier
Page 93 HARP
Problem:
In our game last week, a player was caught without a weapon but with a shield. He chose to shield bash, but we couldn't find anywhere (in the revised book) where the attack size for each shield was. Did I just miss it?
Answer:
[Chris Adams] I don't believe size modifiers and damage caps were ever assigned to shields. It’s a good point though.
Personally, I would work it this way. An untrained shield bash would receive a -20 size modifier (damage cap 80) and a trained shield bash would be a -10 size modifier (damage cap 90).
Why? Because a shield bash will cause some damage and possibly stun an opponent, but it would be very, very difficult to seriously injure or kill a target with a shield. The damage cap and modifier would reflect this
Answer:
I am in the process of creating an Errata and Clarifications document for HARP. In it, I am putting that Bucklers would do a Tiny Crush, Target and Normal Shields would do a Small Crush, and Full and Wall Shields would do a Medium Crush. This reflects what Chris is trying to say, I think....

I would then assume that the latter answer is most attuned to what folks here have been suggesting… convert to puncture if spiked I guess.

[Zhaleskra]

Yeah, I actually found the information today too. It makes sense of course as I'm pouring through core to get a better handle for my con game. As I recall, Full and Wall are Medium Martial Arts Sweeps/Unbalancing.

[GMLovlie]

Yes, but different and more official looking document, all with proper font and logos and stuff.

Shield Bash – This action is outside the normal usage of a shield, and therefore may not be used with a Combat Style. A Shield Bash has an attack size based on the size of the shield:
Bucklers do a Tiny Crush.
Target and Normal Shields do a Small Crush or Small Martial Arts Sweeps/Unbalancing Critical (wielder’s choice).
Full and Wall Shields do a Medium Martial ArtsSweeps/Unbalancing Critical.

[GMLovlie]

I've been thinking about shields. It irritates me that it involves no skill in using shields, only a talent… of course this is partly due to shields giving a static bonus to DB rather than anything else… I've been using a different system for the past few months, in which shields is a skill used to parry, which is an opposed roll, attack and defence are both opposed rolls, rather than attacks having to beat a defensive value, a quite different philosophy in approaching combat I know, but could it be done for HARP? I mean, while shield bash should not perhaps be a very effective and deadly attack, I feel that the current rules are not living up to the HA in HARP…

What if the shield skill gave a bonus to DB equal to some derivative of the number of ranks, varying somewhat with the size of the shield? or the shields gave a base bonus to DB, lets say the "untrained bonus", maybe a bit lower, as a base, and the derivative for instance (as I can conjure no other idea just now) is the number of ranks, so with 6 ranks and carrying a walls shield on level 1 you would have a shield DB of 26…  of course at level 9 you would meet the trained bonus of 40 bonus to DB (base 20 + 20 ranks if maxed out)… what happens after this? I don't know… but is it impossible to imagine someone being legendarily awesome using shield and gaining even a higher bonus for a wall shield than your regular joe straight out from the training? (who would possess the same talent normally and thus there is no difference really).

The "OB" of the skill would be halved, or something, in case on wanted to shield bash someone…

Would this be a bad idea? I know it suddenly makes shields more of an investment than a talent bought and paid for… but, it means that shields could be used skilfully and combat styles for using shield could be made even more awesome… what say you?