Author Topic: Immortal Elves  (Read 24352 times)

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Offline DonMoody

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Re: Immortal Elves
« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2007, 09:25:32 PM »
They're fantasy, so there's no right answer, but modeled on humans, they'd be the stickiest sticks in the mud ever.

I agree there is 'no right answer" but think 'modeled on humans' is, inherently, by definition, a flawed perspective for 'live until slain' immortals.

Similarly:

Just look at the world arround [sic] you.

I thinking looking at, by definitions, individuals who live a handful or two of decades at most is not a sound methodology for imagining 'live until slain' immortals (who would commonly be hundreds and thousands of years old).

... I agree that the perfectionist, driven and ambitious immortals are going to be scary...

This, amongst other items of note in this thread, is why I said "Immortal Elves are NPCs, not PCs."

At least, the 'realistic, believable' immortals are either high powered or not leaving home without a high powered relative/companion escorting them (and elves escorting one or more of their kind from point A to point B is a common fantasy theme).

DonMoody

Offline Marc R

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Re: Immortal Elves
« Reply #41 on: December 10, 2007, 09:46:27 PM »
It's rather difficult to envision elves as risk takers in general, or there would be no elves.

As to the "Well I'm an exceptional, curious elf!"

It's purely personal, but explainations set of a cringe factor likely associated with:

"I am a regade Drow, just sufficiantly dark and mysterious to be cool, but yet truely striving against my culture and nature to the light."

There was a point as that Grazit phase peaked where I knew people who would just kill dark elf PCs the moment they laid eyes on them in their first session before they could explain themselves in a soul searing speach.

"Hell, he's a dark elf, how was I supposed to know he was that freak one in a million good guy."

I like unique, off stereotype characters, I do object when you have a standard, "unique", off stereotype character you keep seeing over and over and over. It works, but it gets stale, then it gets annoying.

It's much easier just to accept it than to try to logic it out. . .in a racially mixed culture it gets worse. . .with humans ready and willing to take risks, why risk your precious, irreplacable self?
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Offline Akai

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Re: Immortal Elves
« Reply #42 on: December 11, 2007, 12:41:54 AM »
I just found this conversation, so excuse me for back-tracking a bit.  I seem to remember reading somewhere that immortal elves adventure because they tend to view life as a game to be played.  Imgine how dull life would be if nothing ever changed----excitement from any source would be preferable to another century of the same old thing.

In Celtic mythology, the Sidhe (elves) were immortal.  They often kidnapped (ie 'borrowed') humans for use in their games and plots, took mortal lovers, etc.... and generally invaded our privacy whenever they liked.  However, the penalties for humans invading the privacy of the 'Good Neighbours' was usually quite severe.  This is a double standard if I ever heard of one, but there you go.

Also, English legends are full of people who I would describe as being half-elven.  The most notable of them are Thomas of Ercldoune (Thomas Rhymour) and Robin Goodfellow.  There are also legends of an elf named the 'love-talker' who delighted in seducing human virgins.

I tend to use Elves as NPC's and plot devices rather than heroes in my games.



Thank you, I'm glad somebody else in this thread is on my wavelength here. The Celtic Sidhe are a much bigger inspiration to me as of late than Tolkien's elves....they're vastly more interesting as characters with their penchant for mischief. And I still think that they can be handled as PCs if the player is talented enough to portray 'em right (and the GM is careful to keep 'em under control). But as far as trying to apply modern ideas of biology, anthropology, sociology to them is entirely missing the point of what elves, or other fae, should be.
Conquistador there is no time, I must pay my respect
and though I came to jeer at you, I leave now with regret
and as the gloom begins to fall, I see there is no, only all
and though you came with sword held high, you did not conquer, only die
"Conquistador" --Procol Harum

Offline Skaran

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Re: Immortal Elves
« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2007, 08:59:40 AM »
See how Oberon and Titania behave in A Midsummers Night Dream for a view of the Sidhe and Unsidhe (Oberon is lord of shadows)
And when one dreams dark dreams dark days shall follow

Offline RandalThor

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Re: Immortal Elves
« Reply #44 on: December 11, 2007, 09:30:09 AM »
Here's a flaw in the "I'm a young, curious elf" out in the world of wacky fast-paced humans, concept:

You are the parents of such elf (the only kid you have had in the last 500 years btw), when do you allow them to leave the nest? When they are just old enough to handle a sword, or after they have significant ability (with elves this will usually be both physical & magical ability) and the greatest chance of survival?

We humans - with the benefit of not living in a world with dragons, bugbears, orcs, bulette, proof of evil gods, etc... - still wait until they are about 2-decades old (around 2/7th of their lifespan). Even hasty humanity is conservative on a world like Greyhawk/Faerun/Kulthea.

When an individual is ready to meet the great-big world is not only determined by genetics, but by the society they live in, elves may not believe that their children are ready until they are the equivalent of 5th or level higher  - heck, maybe not unitl 10th level or so (using game terms). This does double duty; gives the individual elf the greatest chance of survival, and gives the impression to all the other beings out there that elves are, by nature, a race too powerful to mess with. If all the elves that came to your town could out swordsman your fighter and/or out magic your mage, than you would be reluctant to attack them too. (I know I would.)
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Offline Marc R

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Re: Immortal Elves
« Reply #45 on: December 11, 2007, 12:12:24 PM »
That about sums up the issue, as well as I see it also.

I tend to go with elves as asocial beings. . .so they rarely live together, rather existing in scattered rural communities. (As in, if 1,000 elves live in a 1,000 square mile forest you likely won't find more than 1 per square mile.).

My comment above about bronze era elves getting along better than reinessance era humans actually translates to stone age elves with a completely different mindset and tech track more oriented on biologicals and essence magic.

Beyond that, once an elf is adult. . .they are far more self sufficiant than humans, with very little external needs. (If you can live on your own well enough, and never get sick.)

They avoid metal use, they seem like aboriginal hunter gatherers, but their wooden weapons and armor are as hard as steel (thanks feist!). . .sort of like an entire culture of hermits who limit interaction and look like elfquest elves to the outside observer, but actually have deep lore and culture, which most humans fail to ever understand or appreciate.

Casting almost all elves in the hermit mold, with little interest in the outside world, at least cuts back the menace of a 400 year old character asking if they recall what was going on while this castle the party is trying to sneak into was being built 250 years ago. "Do I recall the shape of the foundation holes?" ugh.
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Ramoran

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Re: Immortal Elves
« Reply #46 on: December 11, 2007, 02:42:23 PM »
Really?  'Cause I think of elves as being asocial in relation to other species.  In my worlds, elves tend to live in communities that consist primarily if not entirely of elves.  This could mean they live in scattered thorps throughout a forest, or in grandiose, glittering cities that are huge but nevertheless hidden from the rest of the world.  Maybe my experiences reading Tolkien as a child have colored my view of elves too much, but I tend to think of them as living in medium to large communities consisting entirely of their own kind, and the actual physical architecture of the community depends on location (in a forest, near water, etc.).
« Last Edit: December 11, 2007, 02:51:22 PM by Ramoran »

Offline Marc R

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Re: Immortal Elves
« Reply #47 on: December 11, 2007, 02:52:55 PM »
it's a campaign specific fix. . .to each his own. . .I've seen elves with mohawks, tatoos and nose piercings talking street slang, so I doubt any possibility is beyond being workable.
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: Immortal Elves
« Reply #48 on: December 11, 2007, 04:06:41 PM »
We see all the weird elves because in the end, its a fav of munchkins and meta gamers who seek out the most advantagous races.

After all, when your GM lets you play so called "humanoids" with no real impact on how you behave, well, why take the race with no inherient talents like night vision, immunity to disease, immortality, great stat mods, etc?

So, we all agree.  Elves should be banned from RPG's. 

I am glad we had this discussion.

lynn
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.

Offline markc

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Re: Immortal Elves
« Reply #49 on: December 11, 2007, 04:13:20 PM »
 I can speak for myself and say I have never played an elf in any game besides D&D that did not have some balancing factor for having non-human abilities.

MDC
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Immortal Elves
« Reply #50 on: December 11, 2007, 05:51:55 PM »
We see all the weird elves because in the end, its a fav of munchkins and meta gamers who seek out the most advantagous races.

After all, when your GM lets you play so called "humanoids" with no real impact on how you behave, well, why take the race with no inherient talents like night vision, immunity to disease, immortality, great stat mods, etc?

So, we all agree.  Elves should be banned from RPG's. 

I am glad we had this discussion.

lynn

So, do you hate vampires also (I think they have the same PR firm.  :))
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Scratch that. Power attracts the corruptible.

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rboleyn

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Re: Immortal Elves
« Reply #51 on: December 11, 2007, 11:39:29 PM »
I think there are some flaws in your methodology.
Not sure what they would be (the vagueness of the method used didn't giver me much to go on but my first guess would be you used a 'generic' death rate instead of actually determining causes of death and basing a death rate upon that) but the fantasy literature with 'live until slain' immortals I am familiar with has numerous individuals of an age that is 'many, many centuries' or 'many millennia'.
I didn't have good data on death rates by cause handy, so I took the late adolescent rate from a set of insurance life tables and used that - it's the lowest rate in a modern human population. Even when I chopped it back quite a bit the life expectancy just wasn't that high. However, as there's no point at which immortals start dropping like flies (unlike humans), you get what amounts to a half-life, so there's a very long tail.

rboleyn

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Re: Immortal Elves
« Reply #52 on: December 11, 2007, 11:49:46 PM »
It's much easier just to accept it than to try to logic it out. . .in a racially mixed culture it gets worse. . .with humans ready and willing to take risks, why risk your precious, irreplacable self?
I go with the idea that elfs you meet out in the world are young adults, the elfen equivalent of adolescents really, and they have a kind of wanderlust. Once, there were more such elfs than today, whether because there are fewer elfs now, or whether because those with wanderlust seldom live to breed (or whether it's both factors) is a world-dependant question.

Offline yammahoper

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Re: Immortal Elves
« Reply #53 on: December 12, 2007, 08:03:19 AM »
Absolutely detest Vampires.  Who can love a monster that feeds on humanity to survive?

And all you "but I can drink animal blood" types, stop fooling yourself.  No vampire would WANT animal blood.  They are VAMPIRES you idiots.

lynn
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.

Offline mocking bird

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Re: Immortal Elves
« Reply #54 on: December 12, 2007, 12:09:13 PM »
As a joke in a game the GM ruled that Elves are so perfect they do not go #2. Thier bodies are so advanced they convert all the solids into usful stuff or it is washed away by liqueds. He did it just because a prevous player hated Elves so much. But it sure did make us all laugh at the time.

MDC

So what you are saying is that elves are full of it?  Reminds me of the thread where someone misread 'elves don't get scarred' as 'elves don't get scared'.  Apparently he never met a blood elf in Earthdawn.

This came up recently in our SW campaign.  A dwarf in the party actually knew an opposing army commander when he was much younger and told stories of great 'historical' battles to the common troops.  I also had a high elf mageant (even he didn't like elves) whose father fought against Rhankaan.  So immortality can make good background stories & plots.  Just don't look at it too closely and decide to monkey around with the rules.
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.    Buddha

Offline markc

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Re: Immortal Elves
« Reply #55 on: December 12, 2007, 02:38:12 PM »
 MB,
 Yes and no. I love Elves and the GM ruled the way he did just as a dig on a past player who was an elf hater to the N'th degree. After he said it he came up with the idea that thier bodes are so advanced they dont have solid waste. It was ment as a joke and still is..and has had some sticking power. I do not know how far it will go as it is not a RM campain but a storyteller camapain. I can say in my RM campains I take a different tone game wise on races but crack jokes on the side that have no in game effects.   

 I am also thinking of changing my sig. to say I love elves, because I do. Even including the disadvatages that some RPG's give them even if they are imortal or long lived. Just like I enjoy playing spirt characters from the RM2 oriental comp. It is something farout but something I can still get my mind around.

 Yamma,
 We eat dead animals, people are animals, vampires in general do not kill thier food source as just drain it so they can come back later to feed. Now this is the oposite of the pure inhuman animal vampire point of view and is the way I generally play vampires in my game.

BTW, I was contacted by a vampire PAC and I hope the check is in the mail.

MDC
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Offline Marc R

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Re: Immortal Elves
« Reply #56 on: December 12, 2007, 04:17:32 PM »
I had a long running game where Iron was slaying to elves. . .tied into the whole fey problem with Iron.

That worked out to be a really good balancer, since just about every weapon was iron or steel, along with a lot of the armor.

Had an elf, crowded into the corner by a room full of metal armor wearing allies, eventually freak out, jumping out a window into an ornamental tree just to get away from all the "Death metal" in the room.
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Immortal Elves
« Reply #57 on: December 13, 2007, 02:36:40 PM »
I posted on the "Real" Fantasy World about another aspect of how imortal elves could affect the world they live in. Here it is (for those who don't want to go to another thread):

LordMiller wrote:
Do Elves assuming that they are more advanced assist humanity (In most of my worlds they just watch as other sentient species evolve)?

This statement works to help put the immortal elves (see Immortal Elves thread) into some perspective in a setting. Perhaps individual elves help, ignore, or hinder as they see fit. Imagine a world were an already 1,000 year old (i.e., high-level) elf-mage/animist/whatever decided to assist a group of early humans. They would probably develop a religion around him/her and if/when they finally come to realize (or learn) the truth, it could lead to some very interesting campaign/setting situations. All the gods they knew are actually just representatives of another race living on the same world - only much more advanced/powerful. Could be very cool.......
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Scratch that. Power attracts the corruptible.

Rules should not replace the brain and thinking.

Offline Setorn

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Re: Immortal Elves
« Reply #58 on: December 13, 2007, 02:59:54 PM »
Only for clairity, I wrote your quote, not LM.  Just FYI.
Rev. Scott

It all started with two men vs. three-hundred thousand orcs.

Offline Marc R

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Re: Immortal Elves
« Reply #59 on: December 13, 2007, 03:21:32 PM »
He's right, and I didn't even steal it on purpose.

Elves as the "watchmen". . . .another amusing variant we disucssed. . .

Elves and Humans can cross breed. . .an empire run by half elves, with humans below them as commoners. (Seen that a few times in both lit and RPGs.)
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