Author Topic: Rolemaster Unified art: what happened?  (Read 779 times)

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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Rolemaster Unified art: what happened?
« Reply #40 on: May 04, 2024, 12:48:47 PM »
We're not arguing about inspiration. I think there is where you get this wrong. Programs can't be inspired, they act from programmed algorithms, in this case AI image generators copy/cut/paste human artist's works put very simple, to generate new images. AI generators don't paint images pixel by pixel.
I don't agree. Firstly, the person plugging the information into the AI program is still looking for something. They still have some inspiration they've going for. So far as 'copy/cut/paste' I think you're splitting hairs. Like I said, artists copy each others style all the time. It's why there's 'Impressionism' and not just 'Monet'. In the theoretical sense they are copying/cuting/pasting like work.. or pixels. Their just doing it using physical media. We could say digital art created by a human is doing what you claim AI art is doing.
The person looking to generate something is programming the AI generator with the input used. You do not have to agree with any of it, that is your choice, but I'm telling you how it is in reality.
Maybe it's just your reality. Or maybe you misunderstood. What I disagree with is that: We aren't talking about inspiration. Without the inspiration of the user providing, well, inspiration (parameters) to the AI it would be creating entirely random results at best. Currently, without that input, obviously nothing is produced.

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Unless the fictional artist is copy pasting parts of other artists works into a new creation, there is no similarity between a human and an AI generator
Again, I disagree. It many cases the only major difference between original and derivative art is the fact that the person largely copied by hand rather than cut and paste.
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Offline 5th Knight of Xar

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Re: Rolemaster Unified art: what happened?
« Reply #41 on: May 04, 2024, 01:04:18 PM »
We're not arguing about inspiration. I think there is where you get this wrong. Programs can't be inspired, they act from programmed algorithms, in this case AI image generators copy/cut/paste human artist's works put very simple, to generate new images. AI generators don't paint images pixel by pixel.
I don't agree. Firstly, the person plugging the information into the AI program is still looking for something. They still have some inspiration they've going for. So far as 'copy/cut/paste' I think you're splitting hairs. Like I said, artists copy each others style all the time. It's why there's 'Impressionism' and not just 'Monet'. In the theoretical sense they are copying/cuting/pasting like work.. or pixels. Their just doing it using physical media. We could say digital art created by a human is doing what you claim AI art is doing.
The person looking to generate something is programming the AI generator with the input used. You do not have to agree with any of it, that is your choice, but I'm telling you how it is in reality.
Maybe it's just your reality. Or maybe you misunderstood. What I disagree with is that: We aren't talking about inspiration. Without the inspiration of the user providing, well, inspiration (parameters) to the AI it would be creating entirely random results at best. Currently, without that input, obviously nothing is produced.

Quote
Unless the fictional artist is copy pasting parts of other artists works into a new creation, there is no similarity between a human and an AI generator
Again, I disagree. It many cases the only major difference between original and derivative art is the fact that the person largely copied by hand rather than cut and paste.

I'll end my part in this AI discussion. You'll find enough publications online regarding AI image generation if you truly want to learn, I know as I've had a particular interest in the subject, ever since these generators first surfaced.

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Rolemaster Unified art: what happened?
« Reply #42 on: May 04, 2024, 01:31:14 PM »
I'll end my part in this AI discussion. You'll find enough publications online regarding AI image generation if you truly want to learn, I know as I've had a particular interest in the subject, ever since these generators first surfaced.
I understand how it works. Because I don't agree with you on aspects of it doesn't mean I need to 'learn' more. More likely it means you need to learn that your point of view isn't 'reality'.
- Cory Magel

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Offline 5th Knight of Xar

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Re: Rolemaster Unified art: what happened?
« Reply #43 on: May 04, 2024, 03:08:28 PM »
I'll end my part in this AI discussion. You'll find enough publications online regarding AI image generation if you truly want to learn, I know as I've had a particular interest in the subject, ever since these generators first surfaced.
I understand how it works. Because I don't agree with you on aspects of it doesn't mean I need to 'learn' more. More likely it means you need to learn that your point of view isn't 'reality'.
This just proves how off track you are regarding the subject.

Offline Thot

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Re: Rolemaster Unified art: what happened?
« Reply #44 on: May 04, 2024, 04:29:16 PM »
[...]
 AI generators use and merge pre-existing images, they can never in the near future learn to paint something on their own without relying on scraped databases of images and photos made by humans, scraped and used without said artists consent.

This comment isn't aging well even now...

Offline Thot

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Re: Rolemaster Unified art: what happened?
« Reply #45 on: May 04, 2024, 04:33:47 PM »
I wonder, how many people who wholeheartedly oppose AI art are aware of Sora, or sono.ai?

The world is changing, whether we like it or not. We might as well get better images from it.

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Rolemaster Unified art: what happened?
« Reply #46 on: May 04, 2024, 04:59:38 PM »
I'll end my part in this AI discussion. You'll find enough publications online regarding AI image generation if you truly want to learn, I know as I've had a particular interest in the subject, ever since these generators first surfaced.
I understand how it works. Because I don't agree with you on aspects of it doesn't mean I need to 'learn' more. More likely it means you need to learn that your point of view isn't 'reality'.
This just proves how off track you are regarding the subject.
Or how stuck in your ways or closed minded you are.

I wonder, how many people who wholeheartedly oppose AI art are aware of Sora, or sono.ai?
The world is changing, whether we like it or not. We might as well get better images from it.
What I have heard were fairly mediocre songs, which is largely my opinion of my AI 'art' at this point.  I'm sure it will get better with time, but until AI is capable of independent and creative thought it won't be better than talented artists.  (And I'm not at all thrilled with the idea of AI capable of independent thought).
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Offline 5th Knight of Xar

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Re: Rolemaster Unified art: what happened?
« Reply #47 on: Today at 03:16:29 AM »


Or how stuck in your ways or closed minded you are.
Don't shoot the messenger, I'm only showing you the fundamentals of how AI generators works(tried to, it didn't hit home). This is why I opted out of the AI image discussion above here, as you have failed to grasp the basics which makes this "discussion" a small waste of time.

Offline Progbaby

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Re: Rolemaster Unified art: what happened?
« Reply #48 on: Today at 03:47:13 AM »
Regardless of anybody's opinion on AI content generation, it isn't going away. It is increasing, and it will do so at an accelerating rate. Short of a global cataclysm of some sort, we are stuck with it. Maybe we should change the conversation to how and where and when and by whom it should be used.

Offline MisterK

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Re: Rolemaster Unified art: what happened?
« Reply #49 on: Today at 07:05:23 AM »
Regardless of anybody's opinion on AI content generation, it isn't going away. It is increasing, and it will do so at an accelerating rate. Short of a global cataclysm of some sort, we are stuck with it. Maybe we should change the conversation to how and where and when and by whom it should be used.
The "cataclysm" being lawmakers stating that AI content providers must pay royalties for every piece they use for training.

It won't happen. AI is too useful in certain domains to be bludgeoned into submission like that. The fundamental problem is not AI, it is data availability: 1) the internet where everything is available and 2) the users who think everything *should* be available for free (or as close to 'free' as personal data mining can pretend to be). And neither of those things will go away.

Offline Thot

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Re: Rolemaster Unified art: what happened?
« Reply #50 on: Today at 08:06:00 AM »
[...]
The "cataclysm" being lawmakers stating that AI content providers must pay royalties for every piece they use for training.

Even if that ever happened: That would just mean they'd train it on public domain content.

Guys, this whole AI development has way more implications than just art. We will all be out of our current jobs eventually. And that's okay, as long as everybody still have a livelihood. But that's a discussion for quite different forums.

For RMU, what we really want is just better art. Can we agree on that, at least? :)



Offline MisterK

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Re: Rolemaster Unified art: what happened?
« Reply #51 on: Today at 10:21:39 AM »
For RMU, what we really want is just better art. Can we agree on that, at least? :)
I'm pretty sure the whole point of the discussion was "what is the price of having better art ?" :-P

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Rolemaster Unified art: what happened?
« Reply #52 on: Today at 11:16:27 AM »


Or how stuck in your ways or closed minded you are.
Don't shoot the messenger, I'm only showing you the fundamentals of how AI generators works(tried to, it didn't hit home). This is why I opted out of the AI image discussion above here, as you have failed to grasp the basics which makes this "discussion" a small waste of time.
And yet here you still are, being as obnoxious and closed minded as usual, failing to grasp that your opinion isn't a 'fact'.

The "cataclysm" being lawmakers stating that AI content providers must pay royalties for every piece they use for training.
I don't see it happening. The legality of the whole thing isn't on the side of the artists strong enough to make a case. They will need to show that work is being copied nearly outright, sold as and profited from as a wholesale fake.  Here are some bit taken from explanations of 'derivative' art.

...include major copyrightable elements of a first...

Making minor changes or additions of little substance to a preexisting work will not qualify the work as a new version for copyright purposes.

Originality of a derivative work means any variation of an original work which is sufficient to render the derivative work distinguishable from its prior work in any meaningful manner
.

The vast majority of AI art doesn't qualify as those. It's also subjective to a good degree in the first place, but in a legal matter it would need to be fairly obvious (and maybe detrimental to the original artist to qualify as well).
- Cory Magel

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Offline 5th Knight of Xar

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Re: Rolemaster Unified art: what happened?
« Reply #53 on: Today at 01:15:38 PM »

And yet here you still are, being as obnoxious and closed minded as usual, failing to grasp that your opinion isn't a 'fact'.


I opted out of the AI discussion with you as continuing would be futile.
I'm also sorry to see that you are resolving to personal attacks and attempts at defamation when being explained that your basic understanding of how AI generated images are done is wrong.

Offline 5th Knight of Xar

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Re: Rolemaster Unified art: what happened?
« Reply #54 on: Today at 01:33:42 PM »

For RMU, what we really want is just better art. Can we agree on that, at least? :)


Creature Law 1 is near being published in pdf-form, with Creature Law 2 "most likely" having most if not all art commissioned already. There was a plan of publishing posted(on Discord?) by ICE last year saying that all 5 core RMU books would be out within 2024. Due to this, I would say it is very unlikely that any art will be swapped for anything new.

Offline 5th Knight of Xar

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Re: Rolemaster Unified art: what happened?
« Reply #55 on: Today at 01:43:56 PM »
This is a nice read for anyone advocating for the use of AI generated content in games and rpg books, from the 2023 Wizards of the Coast AI controversy. Wizards has since this "blew up" stated they are banning the use of AI generated content in any of their final products:
https://www.polygon.com/24029754/wizards-coast-magic-the-gathering-ai-art-marketing-image

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Rolemaster Unified art: what happened?
« Reply #56 on: Today at 01:57:33 PM »
...your basic understanding of how AI generated images are done is wrong.
You don't think they're generated using a combination of examples of many pieces of art... just like most living artists do?
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Offline 5th Knight of Xar

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Re: Rolemaster Unified art: what happened?
« Reply #57 on: Today at 02:37:23 PM »
...your basic understanding of how AI generated images are done is wrong.
You don't think they're generated using a combination of examples of many pieces of art... just like most living artists do?
My reply #33 and #36 should have answered this already.

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Rolemaster Unified art: what happened?
« Reply #58 on: Today at 03:10:32 PM »
...your basic understanding of how AI generated images are done is wrong.
You don't think they're generated using a combination of examples of many pieces of art... just like most living artists do?
My reply #33 and #36 should have answered this already.
You're going to need to be more specific.  Both AI and human artists use existing art to generate derivative art from.

Quote
AI generators use and merge pre-existing images, they can never in the near future learn to paint something on their own without relying on scraped databases of images and photos made by humans, scraped and used without said artists consent.
How does this differ from a human basing their new art on past art?

Quote
We're not arguing about inspiration. I think there is where you get this wrong. Programs can't be inspired, they act from programmed algorithms, in this case AI image generators copy/cut/paste human artist's works put very simple, to generate new images. AI generators don't paint images pixel by pixel.
Firstly, as I said in reply to that, we are actually partially arguing about inspiration (via the user inputting parameters), but ignoring that aspect of those posts...
Are you implying something partially copied by hand is okay but something partially copied digitally is not?
- Cory Magel

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(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

"The only thing I know about adults is that they are obsolete children." - Dr Seuss