Topic: Called Shots

[David Johansen]

AAAAAAAHG IT'S THE BOOGIE MAN!!!

Okay anyhow:

Swinging High: add thirty to any critical hit rolls but totals over 100 go too high and glance off for no extra effect.

Swinging Low: subtract thirty from any critical hit roll but totals under 1 glance off the ground for no extra effect.

Called Shot Skill: The as an additional 20% action the character can choose the value of their critical roll upto the lower of their Called Shot skill or Weapon Skill in exchange for subtracting the same amount from their OB.  This Combat Maneuver must be learned for each weapon group.

[Arioch]

I like the first two, but called shot IMHO doesn't work in RM (as you're already supposed to aim a vital spot when attack normally, and if you don't want to kill you opponent there is the Submission skill...).

[Dark Schneider]

I suppose the called shot is very required in the case of zombies, they are very slow, and you need a direct shoot to their heads to kill them (in films).

I am agree that if you know that (undead lore) is not rational see how your character attack desperately its body doing low damage instead trying to attack directly to head, sacrifing force for more effectiveness in a mortal blow.

In other cases, I am agree with Arioch, the RM combat system is directly for deadly combat, if you don't want to kill there are skills for that (brawling too), and if you could AIM every moment then you always hit the head for 1-hit win, so this is not interesting.

For passive targets you have AMBUSH, if this is what are you searching for. But in the case of the zombie it lose sense because a fighter should be more effective in direct combat than a thief.

A general recommendation (you can search topics) is change OB by modifing the critical in this cases (target very slow or passive but not in AMBUSH situation). For example you can change every 5 OB in attack by modifing 2 the critical, this is free for you and you should try different modifiers until you find one you like.

[pastaav]

I am agree that if you know that (undead lore) is not rational see how your character attack desperately its body doing low damage instead trying to attack directly to head, sacrifing force for more effectiveness in a mortal blow.

If you attack a dog and the critical result tell you that you cut of the hand you adjust the description to be fitting. If you try to cut free a comrades from tentacles and hit is's lower leg you adjust the description to be fitting. If you attack a headless monster and hit it in the eye you adjust the description to be fitting.

Seriously I can't understand why the people are can't do the same when you attack a zombie that need a headshot.

[Setorn]

agreed, pastaav.  If the creature, knows where his weak spot is then give it a bonus to DB.  I would only do that in extreme situations though.  Zombies would not know to protect the head.  Dragons may guard a weak spot. 

[Dark Schneider]

Seriously I can't understand why the people are can't do the same when you attack a zombie that need a headshot.

Good point, but the question here is that if you only attack a little % of the whole body, then you should have a penalty to OB, maybe the same that for cover. So if you attack only to head, you can use the full soft coverture (-40).

For usual cases where target defend his weak points, I don't like to use called shots because RM combat is supposed for that situation, but maybe in some cases you could use that too, for example once you identify an hydra main head, you only want to attack it, and not the others.

[Justin]

Seriously I can't understand why the people are can't do the same when you attack a zombie that need a headshot.

Good point, but the question here is that if you only attack a little % of the whole body, then you should have a penalty to OB, maybe the same that for cover. So if you attack only to head, you can use the full soft coverture (-40).

For usual cases where target defend his weak points, I don't like to use called shots because RM combat is supposed for that situation, but maybe in some cases you could use that too, for example once you identify an hydra main head, you only want to attack it, and not the others.

I happened to be thinking about the zombie example just last weekend. here's what I was thinking.
For a specific location(ie head, heart, left-center eye, w/e), you choose a critical severity that represents the difficulty in hitting that spot. Any critical less than that does the normal affect(whether that be nothing or something).
The idea accounts for varying challenges, hits that don't hit called, doesn't need further bonus adjustments, and doesn't need a skill.

[yammahoper]

Attacking a zombie could be handled many ways.  I like all the ways already sugested.

You could also just jump the DB a bit, and any blow that hits strikes the right spot, modify color of crit accordingly.

A PC could need undead lore to KNOW were to strike, though they would learn in time.  In this case, all attacks that miss the head do no real damage, and Justins idea would work great.

Called shots work best in systems that use hit locations, like HERO and Runequest.  RM combat is deadly, but more romantic, and I always enjoyed the juxtaposition of realism and romance in RM combat.

lynn

[Rivstyx]

In RM2 we used to declare called shots by subtracting 25 from the OB and lowering the crit severity by 1.  We would then alter the critical text to hit the affected area.  Say a called shot to the head yields a critical of "Leg wound +5 hits and 3 hits a round bleeding with -25 activity"  The head wound would yield the same.  We would justify the -25 to activity by saying it was due to a concussion or whatnot.  A severed leg would result in a severed head so we would worsen the critical text obviously.  Instead of drops and dies in x rounds it would be a much quicker demise:)

We don't really use this rule in RMSS/RMFRP.  I forgot all about it until now.

[ToM]

I use HARP expanded critical tables with -20/+20 depending on critical severity (MERP style) and -30 OB. Works sweet.

[Fenrhyl Wulfson]

Well, the way undead are managed in RM, hitting the head or not has few consequences. The zombie will still walk towards you and try to rip you into little bits. They are just dead flesh and bones, their hearts don't pump blood anymore, their brains and senses are dead and useless.

Zombie : hack them until they drop to the ground, then put them to the flame, holy water, dispell, destroy undead...

Who cares about the head int he offical rules.

However, if you want to create a special type of zombies that act the same way as in movies. Then I think the previous solutions given here are pretty good.

We already had a thread about called shots, mostly to say they were useless (given that you really can't aim in combat, you strike where you can).

[GrumpyOldFart]

Re: Called shots in general, I'm kinda of two minds about it.

One the one hand part of me says, "If he doesn't offer you the opening you want, are you gonna wait for the chance at a called shot, or take what you can get?" The answers to that question over the decades have been so universally "I'll take what I can get" that in some ways I consider it a moot point.
But on the other hand, I remember some things from when I was wearing armor and swinging a sword myself. Like "programming", throwing a series of blows designed to force him to leave a particular spot open at a particular moment. Like a close friend of mine, rapier fighter, who says his first targets of opportunity are nearly always the wrist, the knee or the foot. He picks his opponent off a bit at a time.
Basically everyone always tries for their favorite shot in their favorite place. If not outright, they try to "set up" a situation that allows for it. Most of the time their foes don't give them the opportunity to attempt it.

[Fenrhyl Wulfson]

Favored moves are the bad habit that allowed Jarnac to defeat la Ch?taignerie... ot a good idea. I try not to have "habits" when fighting.

[Fidoric]

Basically, habits are what gets you killed in combat.

[GrumpyOldFart]

Sure. That's basically what fighters do in a one-on-one. They each try to trick the other into an unthinking, habitual, automatic response. They each try to spot that pattern and make use of it before their foe spots it himself and changes it. Everyone tries to avoid those patterns, but everyone has them too, it's called "style".
What I'm referring to as "programming" above is basically a bluff. It's quite simply not possible to cover 100% of the body 100% of the time, every motion "opens" some spots to attack and "closes" others. So you show your opponent a pattern of movement and of choices, and study his responses. Each of you try to figure out if what you're being shown is subconscious, or thrown out there as bait in hopes of drawing a particular response. "Programming" is if you notice a particular response, give him a sequence of shots that appear to lead to a place where that response is appropriate, and if he responds in a predictable fashion then you know in advance where the "holes" in his defense will be. It's high speed bait & switch, with lethal results for guessing wrong.

[Fidoric]

That's all true. And this deadly dance is exactly what fighting is all about, what makes the heart of the "fighter" template. IMO, it's a way of thinking more than a collection of skills that makes you a fighter or not. That is the way a "fighter", whatever his profession, sees life. That's the fighting spirit.

[RandalThor]

I guess you could modify the Sniper skill to use here, where a successfull attack modifies the crit roll up or down by the number of ranks in the skill. Of course, you are looking for a specific location so you could say that whatever crit you achieved is applied to the target location on a successful "snipe."

[Der Graumantel]

I have thought about that topic and went through the opinions above.

First Question: Are called shots appropriate?

We already had a thread about called shots, mostly to say they were useless (given that you really can't aim in combat, you strike where you can).

I think, this is not the case, for...

1st. What about missile weapons, you could say I can cover that with Sniping (alternate Ambush syle) but you can aim, even when somebody is aware of you.

2nd. In certain situations you might need a called shot (see zombie example above). I think its unappropriate to adjust the normal crits to the location, for the damage increase with the location should be reflected in the damage effects i.e. in the example above the (movie)zombie should be dead pretty fast after being hit in the head as Smaug should die after a arrow hits into his heart.

So imo called shots are appropriate.


Second Question: What rule simulates called shots best?

The above mentioned methods include adding tables, altering the description, specialized mechanics to alter the number of the crit result and taking the critical level as success threshold.
Skiming through that, I think that taking the critical as a damage thrreshold is the best method but not in the presented fashion. Justins version of the rule implies, that that you assign the location a difficulty rating based on on the crit level. The highest crit we have is E (in Arms Law). If I can hit a heart with a E critical I will try that every time, for with a damaged heart a foe is practicaly deafeated. So no way here.

Now my attemt: Assign a OB modifier to every specific critcal and let the player (heavily assisted and restricted by the GM) choose one critical, that he likes to achieve. If he reaches the crit threshold (class of the specific crit A,B,C,D or E), he has done that hit, if not normal result applies.

Pros:
-no extra tables needed.
-no big new rules effort for players, just looking up in the existing (updated) tables for the GM.
-damage-location ratio.

Cons:
-PCs could missuse positive mod on low crits to hit hard to hit opponents.
-Much work and balance issues for the GM til he figured out the fitting mods for the crits.
-PCs normally don't state a specific result when they wish to hit the thing in the head.

Even with these cons, this is the best solution for me. The first contra point could be invalidated by not assigning positive mods to weaker crits. The second stands valid, so one just has to decide, if its worth the work. The third can be overcome by GM guidiance or choice (i.e. the GM chooses the specific crit and tells the player just the mod. for it).

comments welcome

Ben

[Der Graumantel]

Oh, and another problem with my supposed called shot system is that it makes the combat system much more lethal. This is especially true, if you fight foes with much higher OB than yourself. If, for example, Andraax attacks you, you are plainly dead, since he cannot fumble with his sword (as many high level NPCs) and he will take any sensible minus to fullfill a terminal attack.

I'm trying to fix that, but no rule that makes sense comes up, for if I make the mods to severe the mechanism is useless (for killing zombies), for nobody will try or have OK chance to hit the zombies in the head. If make them to low the system becomes to lethal. Hrmpf...

Hey, but you could alter the zombies and give them 0 DB and change their attack speed to very slow. Then change the rules for them so that they only loose hits from head wounds and the other hits can only give them minuses (like a severed leg or a broken arm). This would result in a creature that is easely hit, but hard to destroy. You can hack them to pieces but they will crawl after you, if they have a limb left to crawl. That would also make them more movie alike.

[Arioch]

I have thought about that topic and went through the opinions above.

First Question: Are called shots appropriate?

We already had a thread about called shots, mostly to say they were useless (given that you really can't aim in combat, you strike where you can).

I think, this is not the case, for...

I agree with you, this is surely not the case because when you're fighting (unless you're totally unskilled) you certainly don't swing your weapon aimlessly... But my conclusion is different:

RM assumes that you're always aiming, you're always trying to hit your foe in his "weak point", always trying to hit zombies in their head and Smaug in his chest... This is because you want to see your foe dead and you OB represent your ability to kill things with your weapon.
BUT, obviously, your foe doesn't want to end up dead so he uses his defensive capabilities (DB) to counter your attempt. And this is why most of the times you hit him, but not where you wanted to hit him. You try to hit the zombie on the head, but he partially avoids your blow and you hit him on the arm. You try to shoot Smaug in the chest but you fail and pierce his wing.

In other words, RM handles combat with a conflict resolution mechanic, you and your enemy state an intent (killing each other) and then roll the dice to see who wins (accomplishing his goal) and by which degree.
Usually a combatant intent is to kill his opponent, but this is not always the case. Sometimes he just want to knock him down (and in this case you use the Submission skill, which represents your ability to knock people down without harming them too much) or to gain advantage over him (using the Disarm or Feint maneuvers), or simply to run away (disengage maneuver), etc... RM already handle all this situations with existing skills/maneuvers.

Adding called shots would  simply be redundant  (BTW this is why it makes combat deadlier, because you're giving PCs another chance to do what they're already trying to do: killing their enemy), it would be like adding a mechanic that let spell caster roll to choose which spell they'll cast, or a roll to see what part of a lock a thief is picking...

BUT if you really like the concept of called shots and absolutely want to add them, you could assign each area a difficulty, if character hits roll on the critical table and read the entry for that part closer to the result of the dice.