Topic: Material vs Magical vs Quality Bonus

[Marc R]

In my campaigns I use a crafting system that relies more of the crafter than on materials or magical bonuses. there are several bonuses which apply to a given item: craftmanship bonus + material bonus + construction bonus + magical bonus.
- the craftman ship bonus is a measure of how well the item was made. It is determined by how much the crafter rolled over 111. Every 20 confers a +1 bonus. For every race there is a maximum that they can attain: Humans +5, Dwarves +7, Elves +9 and Noldor +12.
- the material bonus confers its bonus only if used properly and better materials are more difficult to craft, so it confers a hefty penalty when trying to craft difficult items (limiting the craftmanship bonus)
- construction bonus: laminating metals or wood, special tempering, adding spikes and other damage enhancements will confer a bonus, but also add difficulty to the crafting roll, so it is also a dual edged sword.
- magical bonus. If a blade is made of mithril, or above, it will count as magical and cannot be made more magical. For non magical items the enchantment brings only a +5 bonus. This bonus is nearly always magical guidance (or magical deflection in the case of armor), but the alchemist must still use the correct spell of bringing the item to that bonus: so a white alloy spiked chain (+20 nm) can be enhanced by an alchemist to (+25 m) by using Enchant metal V (or equivalent).

If you have a white alloy chain +20, and it takes an Enchant V to make it +25. . .would that also mean that if you take +5 steel and cast an Enchant V on it that makes it +25? I'm just wondering why you'd bother to use super materials if the magic bonus is the same either way.

[VladD]

nope, only by using the good materials can you attain such high bonuses as an alchemist.

I do have to note here that you shouldn't count the craftmanship and the construction bonuses for this: it is just a matter of material quality, enhanced by the magical bonus.

I simply needed to curtail magical crafting and this was one way of doing that. My players were accrueing skill in smithing and began enlisting powerful alchemists and at some point they were contemplating finding a meteorite and mining it and building galvorn weapons and armor, and THEN enchanting them +5 (in d20). So I had to come up with a plausible reason why players couldn't have +13 weapons (+65 in RM).
During that period and afterwards it developed into a 200+ page book of crafting, materials and tables of items and their descriptions

A better description can be found in the Vault under RMFRP houserules: Houserules of GM Joeri 1.2. Section 7 details (in short) how I handle bonus stacking on items and item stacking on characters. It might look pretty generous, but you need really high skill to be able to construct extaordinary gear.

[markc]

The way I deal with it is have smaller values than +5 for increments.
MDC


 Also IIRC you can only increase the value of the material by +5 but you need higher level spells to affect higher bonus materials.
 MDC

[GrumpyOldFart]

My players were accrueing skill in smithing and began enlisting powerful alchemists and at some point they were contemplating finding a meteorite and mining it and building galvorn weapons and armor, and THEN enchanting them +5 (in d20). So I had to come up with a plausible reason why players couldn't have +13 weapons (+65 in RM).

Somebody who's willing to devote decades to it as those guys would end up doing, I tend to let em have it. Then I can use them as a cautionary tale. "Sure, you can get OMG bonus weapons by combining all of the above. You should probably either be immortal or hire someone to slow your aging, otherwise by the time you finish you'll be too old to use it." Then again, item creation is something I don't allow "team play" on either, the guy who does the enchantments has to be the same guy who forges the sword, who is the same guy who smelted the steel. In the end, the d100 bonus he's able to put on a sword, with material quality, craftsmanship and enchantment combined, is about equal to his level as an alchemist. Maybe a little higher, but most of then time not by much.

[VladD]

In fact: I went about it in the same way: more but smaller bonuses and if someone really works hard for a long time, devoting ample game time to his craft, I'm not going to deny him that boon. But there is a difference between handing out +20 Items and +65 items. I'm not prepared to increase the items for my bad guys to level the playing field and make the campaign even more Monty Haul.
At the bottom level I tend to agree: you make it, only you can enchant it. Its a solid principle and even one that will stand in Middle Earth, but I wanted to be able to allow more flexible crafting. Also I wanted broken magic items to be able to get fixed, so I didn't want a principle that was so inflexible as to disallow that.
Anyways, the more savvy players realized that crafting was not profitable enough, because I will usually keep control over the key ingredients until I deem it possible for them to find it and by that time I will usually let them find such an item as they wanted to craft.

[kevinmccollum]

nope, only by using the good materials can you attain such high bonuses as an alchemist.

That is actually something that came along with RMSS Treasure companion. there was no such restriction in RM2.

[Marc R]

I get the overall problem, there's inflationary pressures at work here.

I've just never been comfortable with answers that sound like:

Material, Quality, Magic, only the highest matters.

It's one of those instances where a knight advances across the field, wearing armor made of scroll tubes covered in tin foil, bearing a shield which is the lid of a large stove pot, holding aloft a one edged sword that appears to have been crudely beaten from the strapping iron of a door.

AT20 +25 DB (Crap quality level -20, made of paperboard -20, Enchanted +25)
Shield +45 DB (+20 for size, totally wrong shape for shield -20, made of tin -15, Enchanted +25)
Broadsword +25 (Barely in the shape of a sword -20, made of hammered iron -10, Enchanted +25)

I dislike the very idea of one angle trumping the others, as it leads to the above. . .if you're an alchemist, why bother being a smith, when you can make super high quality / high durability armor out of foil by crumpling it into almost the right shape then enchanting it? If it doesn't make a difference anyway, then why bother going further than the absolute minimum effort needed?

I suspect that's not what you're getting at Vlad, but it's an angle that bugs me. . .I don't want to be able to pick Excalibur out of a pile of other swords by saying "That one, the really crude and crappy looking thing, that's a super sword as made by a magician!"

[GrumpyOldFart]

I've just never been comfortable with answers that sound like:

Material, Quality, Magic, only the highest matters.

Exactly. A guy holding a +20 magic sword made by a master bronze worker should be worried when facing a guy with a +20 magic sword made by a master steel worker from meteorite iron.

[markc]

I've just never been comfortable with answers that sound like:

Material, Quality, Magic, only the highest matters.

Exactly. A guy holding a +20 magic sword made by a master bronze worker should be worried when facing a guy with a +20 magic sword made by a master steel worker from meteorite iron.

 I agree fully.
MDC

[VladD]

I see you understood me wrong:

as for the items you mentioned: the AT of the tin foil full plate would be: AT 1 (tin foil is worse than canvas), -20-50+5 = -65 DB; ie. not really viable.
For me it is logical that bonuses stack since it does in real life: that's why, as a crafter myself; I work with the best gear available: Blue Bosch, Festool and Dewalt (well not the cheap stuff but they have some really nice tools). So Quality, craftsmanship, material, and any construction bonuses stack with a magical bonus. This magical bonus is just an addition of +5 (%) because for high bonuses you need better materials as a base: so high steel is +10, magical high steel is +15 and you need a Enchant inorganic III to make it so.
Mithril is one of the few magical metals in existence (being a special creation of Eru as a present for the Dwarves and the Numenoreans.) so it is at the basis of creating magical materials, perhaps except Lean, that special tree resin (forgot the name) and Mallorn. Ithilnaur, Anornaur, Ithildin, Eog and Galvorn all utilize some Mithril to attain their magical bonus.
I'm not telling you how it is, I'm just explaining how it works in my campaigns, of course.
I think you got mixed up in the description of how I let items stack on a character. It is a direct grab from the D&D 3.5 rules, except I have to explain it to RM users, with RM bonuses. The issue here is that my players (most being Ph.D.'s) have the player-from-hell tendency of taking a ruling and then bending it backwards and exploiting it. So wearing multiple DB items, only 3 can used, which would usually be the best ones: magical deflection DB, magical shield DB and Forcefield DB (usually magical). If I would take the Grumpy approach (which he explained some time ago: letting every item work, except the first item was full bonus, second was at 90% bonus, 3rd at 80%) you bet that my more crafty PC's would gladly buy up ALL available DB enhancements, and ask if a rapier welded to a pouldron was also a way of wielding it.
Hope I cleared up some chaff from my rules;

Joeri

[Marc R]

I didn't think that was what you were saying

I suspect that's not what you're getting at Vlad, but it's an angle that bugs me. . .I don't want to be able to pick Excalibur out of a pile of other swords by saying "That one, the really crude and crappy looking thing, that's a super sword as made by a magician!"

It's just my pet peeve in this area.

Ahhh, OK, so If you want a +25 item, it needs to be made to at LEAST +20 quality/craftsmanship, then have the enchantment V cast on it to bring it up to +25? The enchant IV would do nothing? (Or would it just make it "Magical" for things like "Only damaged by magic weapons"?)

[RandalThor]

In fact: I went about it in the same way: more but smaller bonuses and if someone really works hard for a long time, devoting ample game time to his craft, I'm not going to deny him that boon. But there is a difference between handing out +20 Items and +65 items.

But you aren't "handing them out." The players are taking loads of in-game time to create these items. I could only wish for players who would want to motivate themselves as much! They are creating adventures and a campaign. That is fantastic. If at the end of all that they end up with a +65 weapon (or whatever), I am absolutely fine with that.

I'm not prepared to increase the items for my bad guys to level the playing field and make the campaign even more Monty Haul.

Which you don't have to. Remember, skill is a big deal in RM, most of a character's bonus should come from skill/training, so to create capable, dangerous opponents, they don't need to have buckets of +50 items. Also, some people, when they create a special and powerful magical item, will put in some sort of protection to make it hard for others to use it, and/or you can go the route of Stormbringer.

[markc]

It's just my pet peeve in this area.

Ahhh, OK, so If you want a +25 item, it needs to be made to at LEAST +20 quality/craftsmanship, then have the enchantment V cast on it to bring it up to +25? The enchant IV would do nothing? (Or would it just make it "Magical" for things like "Only damaged by magic weapons"?)

 As per the RAW yes the enchantment (Z) spell has limitations on it. I can see the reasoning for it and can come up with an explanation if you would like one.


 House Rule: I have added magic +0 to my game as well as other magic vales that depend on the material being used. The adding of magic +0 has had a big impact on my game. As of yet I have not rewritten the Alchemist spell lists but I need to adjust them very heavily for what I have done to the material construction rules. Right now I just wing it as needed.
MDC   

[yammahoper]

For a while I experimented with removing OB bonuses and using crit modification instead.  a +1 crit mod for every plus five OB bonus.

Treasure Companion has answers to all the questions posted on this thread.  It is an excellent source book.  For GM's seeking bonuses over +30, there are divine alchemy list.

I avoid all abilities that allow stacking of bonuses.  The only exception are blade runes from the arcane companion, but those tend to be one shot.

When making a tool, certain materials may well be required for the tool to do its job.  There is also a matter of durability (increased break strength in RM) and simple pride.  I have never agreed with powerful items of magic being crafted from the crudest of superior stock.  It certainly isn't like that in a modern production enviroment.  Tooling is incredibly expensive.

Which brings me back to the Treasure Companion, one of my favorite supplements.  The pricing equations are poorly designed IMO, but the base rule set is excellent.

[GrumpyOldFart]

An easy fix is to rule that you can't craft an item that will accept X level spell unless you have a minimum of X skill ranks in the necessary crafting skill. If there are any further penalties, like say -20 for lack of particular tools, that requires 4 more minimum skill ranks. If you want to tie it to the quality of materials without having an absolute 'you must have materials equal to 5 less bonus', you rule that anything below that adds to the minimum skill ranks necessary to enchant it.

So yes, you can make a +20 sword out of bronze... but it actually requires more swordsmithing skill to do it out of bronze than it would out of steel, because the difference between the non-magical bonus of your bronze and 5 less than the bonus you're trying to enchant applies as a penalty to every single spell roll throughout the course of the enchantment.

Suddenly the idea of the dwarves going to war over ownership of a coal seam starts to make more sense.

 

[Marc R]

It's possible that a variation of Vlad's rule works well.

As in. . .The Crafter's skill determines the limit of how good an item they can make. (Say +1/rank)

A crafter cannot make an item in excess of it's material quality. (So, that 20 rank smith needs at least +20 base material to express their skill fully)

Magic cannot increase the bonus beyond the crafting by more than 5, but the enchantment must still be of the appropriate level. (i.e. to make a +20 Expert Crafted sword into a +25 magical sword requires the spell that makes +25 weapons). Any magic bonus added equal to or less than the intrinsic quality bonus merely make the item "Magical" without changing it's bonus.

So, regular crafters get by with regular materials, as they get more expert, either they focus on making items lighter, making items faster or making more at a time, or they move up to better materials to make better items. . . .the true masters seek out esoteric materials.

Alchemists use the highest quality base items to get the highest quality final results.

Not quite the inverse of the "Whichever bonus is highest" rule, but one that makes sense and keeps bonus inflation under control.

[Kristen Mork]

Although, I'd like to see a variant that depends on skill bonus, and not on skill ranks.

[Marc R]

perhaps some variation in the SM table, with super success allowing you to exceed your usual rank based limits?

"I was up all night, I got so into it, it's a masterpiece."

[VladD]

Thats how it works in my campaign, actually: the crafter must make 2 rolls: one to see if the item succeeds and how much time it takes, then there is a separate roll to see the resulting quality of the item. This is because an item can be made fast, but lacks grace and beauty or isn't as good as the client would like.
Both the crafting roll and the quality roll work like a SM, with succes being 111 and then every 20 above 111 increases the success. Where 111 indicates normal time and normal quality, every 20 above decreases time by 10% up to 50%.
The quality increments are more special: separately for tools, weapons and armor there are minor bonuses to be garnered like decreased weight, increased maneuvability, damage bonus or DB, etc.
As for limiting the craftibles by rank: I also incorporated something like that. Especially working with high-end materials and certain constructions, but its more like a table based on rank. Why I'm using rank is because I consider ranks equal to learning.

craft on!

[kevinmccollum]

I can't remember where I saw it but years ago, there was an article or something that indicated that material and quality bonuses don't stack with enchantments EXCEPT for negative ones. So a +20 enchanted bronze sword would be a +0 weapon. I still go by that.