Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => Topic started by: vroomfogle on September 13, 2007, 11:50:18 AM
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I've always wanted to there to be a shield skill, but didn't want it to be a required skill either. So based upon the idea of the tumbling evasion skill, how about this?
Anyone can use a shield using the static DB bonuses given in the book
A Shield skill (1 Shield skill can be used with any type of shield) can be used to make a dedicated Shield Block instead of attacking (e.g. Shield Block is 60% activity). Use the Medium column on the MM table and apply the result to the DB. Different size shields can either use a different column (e.g. Wall Shield is an Easy maneuver) or give a bonus to the roll (the way the tables are designed these are nearly equivalent).
I'm not sure about the specifics. If one uses the Tumbling Evasion or Adrenal Evasion skill then you'd want to the Shield skill to be easier to use as it requires an object.
Another possibility is to be able to use the Shield skill while attacking (e.g. a 10% or 20% manuever), but use the Absurd column. This would give someone skilled in Shield to get additional benefit out of the Shield, though while sacrificing some offense. Though it would also increase the chance of a fumble/failure as well, so may not be used in all cases.
Thoughts?
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You've started a similar thread Shield Training (http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=3166.0) some months ago. Doesn't it make sense to continue in that thread?
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ha, I forgot all about that. Regardless that was in the Revision discussions which are Read Only now. But I'll have to read through that thread to remind myself what I wrote and everyone else's ideas!
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Excellent, I'm not the only one that is happening to. I've got quite a few threads started with "I know I've asked this before but I can't find the thread anymore" ;D Mostly I've got the excuse that those threads are to be found in the old forums.
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Idea for a shield use skill --
Without skill, character gets 1/2 normal shield bonus; full shield if doing nothing more than defending himself.
With skill, character gets 1/2 shield bonus to DB, and may attack with shield bash. If fully defensive (like sai), gets full shield bonus, +1 per rank in shield skill. This is called a "block". Character may not "parry" with shield (too large and bulky and mis-shaped for such).
Just a suggestion....
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I'd say it depends on the shield size and enarmes.
Basically a shield can be used for :
- Protecting a part of the body from being hit (depending on its size)
- Blocking arrows
- hiding the blade, thus allowing to strike from an unpredicted angle
- trapping an enemy's blade
- punch, bash, slam...
- parry, if the shield is light enough (target shield can do this, for example)
I decided that a player willing to use a shield to its full potential has to learn two weapon combat, shield bash + a weapon, feint and disarm AND a weapon style. It took 10 to 15 years to be completely trained into the use of this combination of weapons, did it not ?
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What about shield pushes, and hooks to move your opponent's shield out of place and reduce their DB?
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I don't understand what you mean with shield pushes... are you talking of using the shield to attack? If yes, then somewhere is stated that you can develop a "Shield Bash" attack as a 1-h concussion weapon (and attacking on the small bash table).
And for removing your opponent shield you can use the disarm skill (against his "shield bash" OB, plus the shield DB bonus).
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The other would seem to be a form of disarm (actually a disshield)
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I can't take credit for this but I have been using it and it seems to work.
15. Shield Use
Category: Combat Maneuvers
Optional Stats Used: Ag/Qu/St
A new Combat Maneuver skill is introduced: Shield Use. This skill can never be Occupational. It allows a character to perform special shielding maneuvers, such as providing extra cover to an ally, or turtling oneself for extra cover.
In addition, it increases the character?s DB derived from shields. For each rank the character has in Shield Use, the DB they receive from using a shield is increased by 1. This is an ?active? combat ability, meaning that it does not apply if the character is unconscious, or unaware of the attack, and it only applies if they are using a shield. This bonus is also never rolled for and should be considered constant. The starting protection levels are as follows. The following chart is the max levels once maxed out.
Shield Melee Missile Directed spells
Wall 15 20 15
Full 12 12 10
Normal 10 10 8
Target 10 5 2
Buckler 5 5 2
Shield Melee Missile Directed spells
Wall 40 50 40
Full 35 35 30
Normal 30 30 25
Target 30 20 15
Buckler 20 20 15
Also note that a new shield type has been introduced. The buckler provides a +10 bonus to DB against melee attacks, and a +5 bonus against missile attacks, and +5 against Directed Spells.
Specialties:
? Any specific type of shield.
Example Difficulties:
Routine: Turtle with a wall shield, providing full ?hard? cover against missile attacks from the front and above.
Easy: Use a wall shield to provide half ?hard? cover or a full shield to provide partial ?hard? cover to an ally who uses 50% of his or her own activity to stay behind the shield.
Light: Using a buckler to successfully defend yourself while also wielding two weapons (i.e., gaining the buckler?s +10 DB against melee attacks while still fighting with two weapons).
Medium: Turtle with a full shield, providing full ?hard? cover against missile attacks from the front.
Hard: Use a full or wall shield to provide partial ?hard? cover to an ally without hindering their activities; or use a wall shield to provide half ?hard? cover to an ally as long as the ally uses 25% of their activity to keep behind the shield.
Very Hard: Use a wall shield to provide half ?hard? cover to an ally without hindering their activities.
Extremely Hard: Use a full shield to provide half ?hard? cover to an ally without hindering their activities.
Sheer Folly: Use a wall shield to provide full ?hard? cover to an ally without hindering their activities.
Absurd: Use a full shield to provide full ?hard? cover to an ally without hindering their activities.
Cover Melee Missile Basic Directed Area
Full soft Na Na 20 Na Na
Half soft 20 40 10 20 20
Partial soft 10 20 0 20 20
Full hard Na Na 20 Na 60
Half hard 30 60 10 30 30
Partial hard 15 30 0 30 30
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I don't understand what you mean with shield pushes... are you talking of using the shield to attack?
And for removing your opponent shield you can use the disarm skill (against his "shield bash" OB, plus the shield DB bonus).
The shield is a defensive tool to protect the fighter, or character. And what I was talking about above was not making a separate attack, as per shield bash, but neutralizing your opponent's DB by reducing the effectiveness of their shield.
I've see shield pushers used effectively in SCA combat to momentarily throw the defender off guard to score a hit.
I suppose I see shield use as a skill, not a passive bonus like it is currently in RM, and I'm just thinking about it's uses.
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- Defense: use 'styles', we use the styles as spell lists, rank based skills that 'unblock' options to combat, you only need to define your proportion ranks/style points (1 rank = 2 or 3 style points, for example). So, if I remember well, use shield trainning (10 points) for 1 weapon (5 points) are 15 style points (about 5-8 ranks in a style skill). For related-weapons (this is the most generally used, for example style for swords), you need 5 points more.
I see this 'style' option interesting, so your MA users don't beging directly with degree 3 or 4 attack, and they need to develop, so probably MA users can begin to use degree 3 with level 6-7 and degree 4 with more. This system is not based in all-from-beginning style option, if you see MAC, there are styles really useless (nobody will choose them) and others are too powerfull (level 1 character can do that?).
So, now ALL are 'custom styles' (you buy options with ranks), and styles presented in MAC are 'guides', so if you want to be included in 'karate school', you basically need to develop degrees for MA strikes and a crush weapon kata (as nunchaku).
Additionally, a GM can require a master to buy some options (for example MA degree 4).
For parring, if you have a shield you can use any melee DB for that, you really don't need a weapon in your hand to parry with a shield.
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- Attack: develop it as crush weapon and develop too 2 weapon combo, so you can use the shield for defense or attack as you want. I think it used the 'bash' table attack.
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The shield is a defensive tool to protect the fighter, or character. And what I was talking about above was not making a separate attack, as per shield bash, but neutralizing your opponent's DB by reducing the effectiveness of their shield.
I've see shield pushers used effectively in SCA combat to momentarily throw the defender off guard to score a hit.
You could use the Feint (Shield) skill to simulate this and reduce your opponent's DB.
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I'm still contemplating if the disarm would be legal.
You can knock the sword out of someone's hand, can you dis-shield them with the skill? (It technically can be considered a 1 HD crushing weapon you use to block for it's shield bonus.)
It seems like you could attempt a disarm on the shield. . .I'd probably slap a big fat penalty on it.
The push back feels like the old "Melee Scuffle" attack from the Arms Companion, that allowed you, in close quarters, to attempt to inflict additional unbalance crits on your foe.
The trick out of position thing does sound like feint.
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Regarding the 'disshield' maneuver, I would definitively separate shields in two kinds. Those who are only hand held (small shields like buckler, small and maybe normal shield) and those in which your forearm is stuck, which is the case with heavier shields such as full or wall shield. The former may be knocked away from your grip whereas the latter could not, or it would be a difficult proposition at best. The risk for the bearer of a heavy shield is having someone grasp it and twist it until the bearer's elbow snap... That's why modern shields, like those used by SWAT teams, rotate around an axle. That's quite beyond the design of medieval shields though.
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That makes sense, you could "Disarm" a targe or small shield, but not anything with an arm loop. (or if with an arm loop, at a big penalty perhaps).
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I think the most effective attack for removing shield is a grab. If target is stunned and you grab the shield (you roll in the table but crit is applied to shield), and if grabbed the target has 2 options:
1) drop the shield.
2) do not drop the shield: in this case you could apply a immobilised modifer (positional) for next attack, as target can't use its QU (as with other positional modifiers).
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From what i've learned in fencing, concentrarting on one's shield is a bit pointless. If you are able to Disarm a shield, you'd rather disarm the damn sword your opponent is trying to gut you with.
It may look cool in Troy or Kingdom of heaven, but it does not make a lot of sense in sparing. (as far as real combat is concerned, experimented warriors did cut the lower left leg under the shield rather than trying to hit the guy anywhere else).
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Depends on weapon style, you might directly slam an opponant's shield with a battleaxe or battlehammer and break the arm or shield. . .
some weapons, or some warriors, are not big on finesse. Modern fencing is all about finesse with relatively light weapons.
Also, in battlefield conditions, first rank hitting a shield wall and grabbing it to pull it down, so the second rank can attack with spears, sounds tactically about like first rank dropping onto barbed wire so 2nd rank can advance at a run over you. . . .
In one on one fencing, rarely can I think of anything more than a small shield being used. The larger shields were mostly meant for interlocking formation defense. . .I suspect that if played realisticly, you should really get signifigant OB/maneuver/perception penalty for a large or wall shield, then a big DB bonus if used in a "Shield Wall" or "Turtle" maneuver. . .they'd likely be more a hinderance than a help in 1 on 1 combat vs anything other than a slow opponant.
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I should have been more precise, it's ancient fencing : axes, round shields, two handers and the like.
But you are right, one could simply hit the shield as hard as he could and hope to break the arm of its bearer. I never thought about this before. I figure that so far i've just been trying to hit my sparing mates, not to kill or maim them ;D
However, ancient fencing is also requiring a lot of finesse, but still a lot less than renaissance fencing or modern one (which is a sport and not a combat practice).
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Yeah, I suspect your mates wouldn't appreciate you scoring a point that sent them to the Hospital.
With a wood or thin metal shield, a 2HD or battleaxe might actually cleave it completely. . .big risk would be getting stuck, One on one, annoying, but if fighting two foes, having your blade lodged in the shield of one of them would likely be lethal.
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OTOH, having your weapon stuck is not necessarily as bad as it seems. I can easily imagine throwing or thrusting a long and heavy spear at an opponent's shield wishing that it WILL stick. That way, with a 10-foot spear hanging from it, the opponent shield would be useless.
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The Plumbata (sp?)
Roman javalins, weighted near the head, with a soft iron blade/point.. .thrown with the specific goal of lodging in shields, soft tips bending to make them harder to remove. Making the shield impossible to use. . . .only thing better than meeting an open horde of barbarians with a shield wall was to take their shields away first.
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So i plunged in my books...
The plumbata was a dart and, as far as i could find, were fired in a "bell" curve in order to hit the heads and shoulders of the enemy instead of their shields. Quite an efficient way to deal with the wall shield problem.
But the pilum is indeed fitting the description you give.
The franks had two weapons specially made for disposing of shields at a distance.
First the francisca, whose shock and penetrating power proved lethal to many foes. It would just shatter any shield, armor or helmet it would strike.
Then there is the angon. Agathias says that it was a 2 metres long hooked spear (like a lily flower like spearhead) with a long iron part (1 meter). Basically, it is a battle harpoon (the franks were first sailors and rivermen of great skill). According to Agathias, it was fired at shields from which it could not be removed because ot the hooks. Its long metal setting (french: "douille", i lack the word in english and my dictionnary does not know it) would prevent the enemy to cut the shaft and its weight would make the shield unwieldy. The frank warrior would step on the shaft to pull the shield off its bearer grasp and strike him from behind his. Or the angon would be tied to a rope and pulled back with the shield it was embeded in.
I'll try to find pictures of these weapons. (edit : found, but i have to scan them, later).
I also thought about shield grappling and it came to my mind that an axe head can grab a shield and its wielder can pull the top or side of the sield. Depending on how it is held, it may violently swing and hit its bearer.
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heh, sorry LIGO (Latin in, Garbage out) my brain, it failed me.
I'm vaguely recalling references to axes used the way you're saying, and my brain is dredging up some references to 2nd rank hooked pole arms used to pull shields out of the way for 1st rank swordsmen in Tercios during the 100 years war. (What a way to fight, squares grinding on each other, reminds me of phalanxes from thousands of years before)
I'm also thinking khopesh. . .I wonder, all those hooked or end spiked weapons would actually work quite nicely for a shield hook-and-pull you describe.
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Tercios did not see action during the hundred years war, but that might have been in Italy. Or maybe i am wrong. I'll check when i have the time.
What you describe look like the bill hooks our "beloved neighbours from beyond the Channel" ;D used during the hundred years wars.
I saw pictures and drawings of recurved shields, like a saucer, the upwards part facing the enemy. This prevented the shield from being hooked but i can't say if it was used for battle or for tournaments and duels.
I'll ask my armmaster about hooking and pulling a shield. Sounds like you are right about spiked and hooked weapons.
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Gustavus A crushed Tercios at Brettenfield, which was the beginning of the end of slow square formations in favor of smaller more mobile combat formations and more use of field Artilliary. . .(I think Napoleon was the one who actually gets credit for the final coup de gras on the concept though)
My tercio ref is definitely off on the bills though. The reference I was thinking of is a swiss tactic.
I saw a piece on dueling shields. . .they look like a Cello. . .sort of a large hourglass shape giving two hook like projections on either side of top and bottom. . .used only in ritualized combat, solo, without weapons. Well, the shield is the weapon. A 2hd shield, gripped in the center of each "hourglass" end. . . .seems we humans have created loads of odd ways to kill each other.
But the more we discuss it, the more I wonder if you couldn't develop a technique to use against a sword-n-shield. . .using a small hooked weapon of some sort to grab onto their shield, then use their shield both as a barrier and a lever to pull them around, and beat on them over the shield with a flail in your other hand.
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But the more we discuss it, the more I wonder if you couldn't develop a technique to use against a sword-n-shield. . .using a small hooked weapon of some sort to grab onto their shield, then use their shield both as a barrier and a lever to pull them around, and beat on them over the shield with a flail in your other hand.
Since shields are the most basic of protection, I think that if such a technique was practical, it would have been invented :)
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Nobody but PCs use a wall shield in one-on-one combat, heheh.
Flail was to a degree kept in use as a weapon almost as long as the sword due to the fact it went over and around a shield. (Or a parry)
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Flail was to a degree kept in use as a weapon almost as long as the sword due to the fact it went over and around a shield. (Or a parry)
That's the one thing that could be enhanced in RM combat, is to add specific abilities to each weapon to better represent them. I'm not entirely sure what those things would be, but in the case of a flail there could be a chance to reduce shield or parry bonus for instance. That's be a good house rule.
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That's a work in progress Vroom, and you can't imagine the mess it is to balance.
I got answers from my arms master and i made some reseraches.
Shields are either meant for fighting in formation or for melee / duel fighting.
The former type is usually firmly strapped tothe arm or even the body of the fighter and it is useless to try and disarm them. But you can use it to have a wrestling hold on your foe. You can also use your own shield to use as a lever and pull the opponents shield in such a way that the fighter ext to you might have a strike at him. Hooking weapons like axes, spiked maces, hooked spears, boar spears, most pole weapons and many etc.. could be used to violently pull the shield and harm its wearer. Simply hacking at the shield can be a solution if the it is in plain wood. Plywood will resist to nearly anything you send at it (save siege weapon ammunition and several axe blows, i believe one may actually stop a bullet fired from a handgun but i may be wrong). Metal shields will bend or just "ring" (actually vibrate to evacuate the energy of the blow). Wooden shields with a metal rim will prove hard to hack, and those with a soft wood rim will trap weapons trying to do so.
Spears can be used like levers to force their way under a shield and strike the elbow or arm pit.
In melee or duel fighting, the shield is actively used by its wearer to parry incoming blows. Those shields are lighter and usually more maneuverable than the ones used in formation. According to my arms master (and i think he is right) there is no point in losing time to remove a shield because if you are able to do so, you'd better do it to the main hand weapon. Worst of all, some dueling shields had sharp rims, or spiked ones. You don't want to come too close from them. Last, disarming a shield involves using your weapon to take an hold on it. If you can do this, you also can plunge it in your foe's body.
If you don't have any weapon, you may want to disarm your foe bare handed (he showed us hos to do on several occasions). If the shield is simply hand held, it is possible to remove it. If the shield is strapped to the arm or body, you can use it has a wrestling hold.
However, it is very unlikely your foe will let you do this. If he has a weapon you are dead meat. Better to disarm the weapon or use it as a wrestling hold, or grab it through a locking hold (this has also been demonstrated in today's lesson).
Don't know yet how to represent it in the rules, but i think rolemaster already has everything necessary to represent accurately shield maneuvers, disarms or wrestling. We just have to adapt it.
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Fenrhyl, you obviously are interested in medieval weaponry. You keep mentioning your "Armsmaster", excuse me if you explained before but you could you give us some background info? Sounds pretty interesting!
If you've the time I'd be very interested in seeing a description for each of the RM weapons and what their advantages and disadvantages were, historically. Perhaps given that we can can work together here on the forums on some weapon specific rules. It sounds like you may have gotten started on doing such a thing yourself, I'd love to see it.
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Same here. . .I'll ditto both requests. Been an interesting conversation.
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Well, i'll ask for a bit of patience on this matter. I've already written a glossary of ancient weaponry (english to french, french to english) but the descriptions are in french and i have to add the RM rules for each weapon type. That's part of the work i have to do for my website and i was planning a translation to english for TGC. I must play test some things too.
For the arm master : every saturday 3 modern fencing teachers hold a "salle d'armes" (training grounds) for teaching ancient fencing using knowledge from manuscripts, residual knowledge taught from mouth to hear, teachings from the french staff & sticks discipline (given the staff - and thus the spear - was the primary weapon in western europe, this discipline is really old) and practical knowledge learned either in modern day tournament (there is championship but only swords are authorized) or through other disciplines. One of them, the "arm master", has been studying ways of fighting in Western Europe, Russia, India, and southeastern Asia : he is very knowledeable about fighting, uses mostly locks and holds and is a kind of wizard when it comes to disarming a foe with his bare hands..
Bad point for you, it takes place in Paris. Try to travel in the subway with a two hander, that's funny.
Nowadays, french staff and sticks is just a "sport", at the beginning of the 19th century it was a "self-defense" fighting discipline. Here is a video about it :http://www.batoncanne.com/Canne-et-baton-ASCA-by-TWI.html
Remove the fancy moves, allow to strike anywhere, stop calling the blows and you get back the ancient way of fighting with this discipline.
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I always thought melee scuffle and weapon brawl, skills from RM2's Arms Companion, covered types of attacks a shield could commit very well.
For melee scuffle, instead of just doing unbalance crits, grapple crits or crush crits or even disarm attempts could be done.
Weapon brawl is kind of obvious, and the brawl attack table has some very neat crit results that would fit well into fighting with a shield. Attack sizes could also be figured by shield type, except I always thought getting bashed in the face by a shield of ANY size was gonna really hurt, so restrictions might not be necessary.
lynn
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I was thinking about a Martial Arts companion Weapon styles rather than using a brawling skill.
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I doubt those skills will ever come back, but the concepts are worth noting. . . The Arms Companion had great ideas, but often poor execution or costs.