Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => Topic started by: Dreven1 on March 20, 2022, 05:18:10 PM
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Hi all!!!
I hope this day finds you well! :) Does anyone out there use (or have ever used) a standard set of Temps and Potentials to keep from stat scope creep and to help maintain better balance?
I need a way to assign stats to everyone using a balanced and standard set of Potential and Temporary's that are "picked". No one gets to roll for potentials and everyone has the SAME top end. The reason is simple and I dont want to go into it, I just need everyone's help.
I want to maintain a balanced and fair game and to help inhibit cheating as best I can. I want those that are specialized in their classes to be able to use their classes and not be overshadowed by a character that can "do everything".
Let me know your thoughts! I was thinking possible 3 sets of these stats, one overloaded in the prime requisites, one more balanced and one that is "jack of all trades" balanced.
Dreven
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Like a standard array?
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In RMU, I use a 'standard array' which is similar to what you're talking about, but I just use stat bonuses (rather than stats directly), and I don't use potentials (I just give each character 3 more bonus points every third level), so I'm not sure that would be helpful for you.
Also, you might want to specify what version of Rolemaster you are using, as there are some significant differences in how they each handle temporaries and potentials.
Overall, though, I agree that using a standard array does help to reduce character envy in the group!
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In RMU, I use a 'standard array' which is similar to what you're talking about, but I just use stat bonuses (rather than stats directly), and I don't use potentials (I just give each character 3 more bonus points every third level), so I'm not sure that would be helpful for you.
Also, you might want to specify what version of Rolemaster you are using, as there are some significant differences in how they each handle temporaries and potentials.
Overall, though, I agree that using a standard array does help to reduce character envy in the group!
But it also removes an element of individuality. I don't like standard arrays. I do like point buy. RM2/RMC allows you to roll up your character, and RMSS/RMFRP allows you to buy your stats.
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But it also removes an element of individuality. I don't like standard arrays. I do like point buy. RM2/RMC allows you to roll up your character, and RMSS/RMFRP allows you to buy your stats.
Yes, and RMU allows you to do either. I didn't mean to imply that standard array is the only way to play; I just meant that I prefer that or buying stats to rolling, just because I have had cases where one player rolls a character with five stats in the 90s and nothing below 50, and another has a single 90 and several bad stats. Stats are quite important at low levels, so I prefer characters to all be on the same playing field, but I acknowledge that some groups will prefer to let the dice fall where they may.
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Personally, I think the point buy method is fine, but we discussed a standard spread for creatures. Not certain what the final result was, and it would be for the average power level, but stat bonuses of +6, +4, +2, +1 +0, +0, -1, -2, -4 , and -6 were proposed. Final rule is 15 pts at superior power level, so maybe +8, +6, +4, +2, +2, +0, -1, -2, -4? Any spread is going to be somewhat arbitrary though.
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Yes, any spread is arbitrary. Mine is a little more high powered, since I find level 1 quite difficult and stat boosts can really help. Mine is 10, 8, 6, 5, 4, 2, 0, 0, -3, -6, though that was kind of a luckier roll by me that I am extending to my players.
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I must admit that, in my last campaign, I simply let the players choose the stats of their characters.
It went well. And I could be fairly sure they had not cheated :D
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...Overall, though, I agree that using a standard array does help to reduce character envy in the group!
Sorry all! Its RMSS/RMFRP
It's not character envy: its that the player that does this can do EVERYTHING (the stats at 5th level were 100, 100, 100, 100, 100, 99, 98, 96, 94, 92). The other players roll 'normally' and have possibly 1 or 2 100's and the rest of their stats will be maxed out but their maxes are on the normal variation. No one is as lucky as this player and they are making it hard for the other 5 folks to 'do' anything because she'll have the same bonuses for tons of different categories than the folks that actually are geared toward the skills/category by profession or race. Its a deeper issue but I am just trying to make everything more rounded so that if you are a Ranger or an Animist - your herp lore, tracking, forest skills are going to be higher than the magent or the fighter. But I cannot have, say, a Mentalist that can track like the Ranger, cast spells like a Magician, Observations and ambushes like thieves and rogues, combat like fighters, etc...etc...etc. The professional bonuses along with the decreased DP costs should outway maximizing stats to help those that choose a profession for the 'thing' that the profession is good for... to do their thing. :)
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I must admit that, in my last campaign, I simply let the players choose the stats of their characters.
Wait until you get someone that doesnt care how they affect the other players. You'll be challenged to keep that mentality.
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Like a standard array?
Yup. For RMSS/RMFRP
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...but stat bonuses of +6, +4, +2, +1 +0, +0, -1, -2, -4 , and -6 were proposed. Final rule is 15 pts at superior power level, so maybe +8, +6, +4, +2, +2, +0, -1, -2, -4? Any spread is going to be somewhat arbitrary though.
I LOVE this idea! I have to figure out what spread to hand those with more than two prime stats like Chaotics/Arcanists/Mage Hunters, etc. Maybe another array but more generalized with averaged top stats and low stats but more even in the middle. Like: +4, +4, +4, +1 +0, +0, -1, -4, -4 , and -4?
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I have to figure out what spread to hand those with more than two prime stats like Chaotics/Arcanists/Mage Hunters, etc. Maybe another array but more generalized with averaged top stats and low stats but more even in the middle. Like: +4, +4, +4, +1 +0, +0, -1, -4, -4 , and -4?
Yes, I did actually consider offering a second choice of 'standard array' for characters such as hybrids, who could benefit from a bit of a different curve, so I think that will work well.
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Ok, what does everyone think about this!!!
Standard Array System for Temp\Prime requisites based on an average of 15 Standard “stat bonuses”
Adjustment points:
• A maximum of 2 points can be allocated to change any stat array
• 2 points can be used to move up one stat by 2
• 2 points can be used to move up two separate stats by 1 each
• 2 points must then be used to move one stat down by 2 or two stats down by 1 each
Standard Array “A” (Focused)
8 5 1 1 0 0 -1 -1 -5 -8
Standard Array “B” (Jack of Trades – must be chosen for Hybrids)
5 5 2 2 1 -1 -2 -2 -5 -5
For Arcane (This is chosen for an Arcane with 3 prime requisites)
5 5 5 0 0 0 0 -5 -5 -5
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If you want a standard array that a player can simply plug into their stats (and not add points to), you would want all the stat bonuses to add up to +15 total. If you're going to make them add points anyway, you might as well just use point buy.
As for RMSS, I'm away from my books so I can't field that one (at least right now).
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I must admit that, in my last campaign, I simply let the players choose the stats of their characters.
Wait until you get someone that doesnt care how they affect the other players. You'll be challenged to keep that mentality.
I choose who I play with. It makes my life so much easier :)
You know the vaunted "social contract" ? It's part of it.
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If you want a standard array that a player can simply plug into their stats (and not add points to), you would want all the stat bonuses to add up to +15 total. If you're going to make them add points anyway, you might as well just use point buy.
Yes, I see point buy and standard array as two separate things:
--Standard array = a set range of bonuses.
--Point buy = everything starts at 0, players get a set number of points to change them
I would not mix both.
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What Hurin said! :D
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If you want a standard array that a player can simply plug into their stats (and not add points to), you would want all the stat bonuses to add up to +15 total. If you're going to make them add points anyway, you might as well just use point buy.
Yes, I see point buy and standard array as two separate things:
--Standard array = a set range of bonuses.
--Point buy = everything starts at 0, players get a set number of points to change them
I would not mix both.
I'm using RMSS/RMFRP and a little confused, does the standard set end up with +15 when all bonuses are totaled? or is it a flat zero with the bonuses and negatives added together?
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I'm using RMSS/RMFRP and a little confused, does the standard set end up with +15 when all bonuses are totaled? or is it a flat zero with the bonuses and negatives added together?
I'm not versed in RMSS/FRP, but note that JDale's suggested array did indeed add up to +15 when you sum the values (+8, +6, +4, +2, +2, +0, -1, -2, -4). He identified that as an array for a 'Superior' power level, which is a concept I'm familiar with in RMU: if you want characters to be more powerful, you would give them more points to buy stats with, or you would give them arrays that use more points.
His first array was an 'average' power array, with stats totalling 0.
So, he was giving arrays for different power levels. The more points you have to spend in the system, the higher the power level will be.
So, if you want characters to be stronger, give them more points to buy stats, or offer them arrays that add up to +15 or more when the values are summed.
If you want characters to be weaker, give them fewer points to buy, or offer them arrays that add up to less than 15 when the values are summed.
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So, if you want characters to be stronger, give them more points to buy stats, or offer them arrays that add up to +15 or more when the values are summed.
If you want characters to be weaker, give them fewer points to buy, or offer them arrays that add up to less than 15 when the values are summed.
I gotcha! Yes, I wanted to bring the power level WAY back down from where it is now. Fyi, I also let them use the abominable "Talent Law". I am taking that away and using a standard "normal" array (which totals +-0). I want to return to a more MERP type game and feel not so overweighted to dang superhero "Level 20 at level 1", type game.
Thank you for all the input!!!
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Ok, so all my numbers before were based on RMU, where it is easy to figure out the sum of the stat modifiers, since the stat bonus is the same as the cost of the stat in point buy. That's not true for RMSS. But let's look at RMSS for a bit.
You are required to have two stats 90+, and no stat can be below 20. You have 660 stat points to distribute. Stats of 90 or less have a cost equal to the stat. Let's assume since you want to have a lower power level that no stat will start above 90. So, two 90's takes 180 of our points. Our minimum of 20 in the other 8 stats takes 160. 180+160 = 340, which leaves 320 to distribute. If we distributed them evenly, that would be 60 in those 8 stats. That's not a very interesting array though.
If we just try to have one of every possible bonus, like this: 90 - 90 - 85 - 80 - 75 - 70 - 50 - 30 - 25 - 20 the total point cost is 615. A bit low.
So maybe 90 - 90 - 85 - 80 - 75 - 70 - 60 - 50 - 35 - 25. That yields stat bonuses of +5 +5 +4 +3 +2 +1 +0 +0 +0 -2.
If we use the fixed potentials, that gives us 96 - 96 - 91 - 91 - 86 - 87 - 82 - 78 - 68 - 64 for stats of +8 +8 +5 +5 +4 +4 +3 +2 +0 +0.
Another alternative would be to have one higher stat: 95 - 90 - 85 - 80 - 75 - 70 - 60 - 40 - 25 - 20 for +7 +5 +4 +3 +2 +1 +0 +0 -2 -3.
Fixed potentials yield 98 - 96 - 91 - 91 - 86 - 87 - 82 - 73 - 64 - 64 for stats of +9 +8 +5 +5 +4 +4 +3 +1 +0 +0.
You can obviously pick lower numbers if you want a low-powered game, but those give stat distributions that meet the expectations of the point-buy system in RMSS. I think the biggest issue is not the starting stats but that RMSS lets you reach your potentials so fast the starting stats are almost irrelevant. RMU only gives you stat gain rolls for two stats each level, so it gets spread out much longer and you have to decide what's important. (I like to have one selected stat and one random stat to keep characters from being too narrow, but that's not the rule.)
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Ok that was awesome, thank you!!!