Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Shadow World => Topic started by: kmanktelow on July 11, 2008, 05:30:29 PM
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Hi, All,
This is probably a dumb question, but I've just spent the last couple of hours playing with the Astronomy program Celestia (downloadable from http://www.shatters.net/celestia/index.html with the 2,000,000 Star Add-on database from http://www.celestiamotherlode.net/catalog/extrasolar_stars.php) and I've been trying to work out exactly where the Kulthean solar system actually is, in space. :o
From the starmap given in 'Imperial Crisis' the Ceril star is about 79LY from 3 Ceti, which by my reckoning using Celestia makes it the star HIP 993/HD 805/SAO 128638, which is just over 79LY from it. This could account for the movement in the next 10,000 or so years.
The only problem with this is that HIP 993 is a spectral class G5 star, and is around 57 times brighter than our own sun- and is 8 times the size- although they have got similar surface temperatures.
Does anyone else have any better ideas? Terry?
This may sound like a stupid question, but one of the really useful things with Celestia is that not only can you 'go to' the star in question- but you can also revolve around it. And, probably even more useful, you can add planets, moons, spacecraft, etc, around Stars using it's add-on system (I've currently got all the Babylon 5 spacecraft orbiting Epsilon Eridani III- with the Shadow/Drahk vessels orbiting Z'ha Dhum. Sad, I know!) ;D
But, wouldn't it be nice to be able to view the stars that are actually seen from Kulthea?!?!? ;)
Any ideas would be appreciated.
All the Best,
Kevin.
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I do not know but I think they just might have made up some star system information or even the star system information back then was different than we have now. We have ahd some good advances in the astronomy field since the 80's and it would not suprise me one bit if they were slightly off in some way.
MDC
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Yep, we fudged a lot back then, though I tried to find some kind of 3D software that would let me view starmaps. There were a few clunky things but it was 20 years ago!
A better candidate would be HP 1082 maybe,and we are a bit off on our measurements. Is there any way t use Celestia to create the kulthean solar system from scratch? Now THAT would be cool. I wanted to do it in Bryce but too much work.
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Hi, Terry,
Yes, Celestia allows the creation of complete solar systems- replete with Orbital Instations, Space Craft, moons, satellites. There's add-ons for Star Trek, Babylon 5 (I've got all the B-5 addons), and various other fictional Solar Systems.
It just mean understanding the *.ssc file structure (editable in Wordpad) to set up the objects, orbits and texture maps.
I've started to look at the Solar System Construction file format- and I'll have another look this evening. We're looking after the Grandchildren today. ;D
All the Best,
Kevin.
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I have one but cannot remember the name right now but they have the features you talked about above as well as the ability to download all the star info for our universe for 50ly and 100ly from earth. I will check later but thoes are the numbers that stick in my mind.
O the good old days of HP. I have an HP 48SX that I need to see if I can get the screen replaced on as I love reverse pollish! It also has more memory than my first computer and the Chem and Phys add on card.
I think the program is Astro Synthsis but again I will check later and get back to you.
MDC
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Hi, Terry et al,
Well, I downloaded 'System Maker for Celestia' which can take and modify existing *.ssc files- allowing the addition of Planets, Moons, Spacecraft around existing Stars. I duplicated the Epsilon Eridani 3 files and modified them (spending plenty of time swearing as I converted miles to Kilometres and millions of miles to Astronomical units!)
Mind you, it still means learning about orbital eccentricities, semi-major axes, Longitude of Pericenters, etc... ???
Stuck the whole caboodle around HIP 993, only to find that mean surface of Kulthea would be- cue drum roll- 531 K (About 257.85 C or 496.13 F.)
Whoops!!!! :o
I've tried sticking it around HD 1082 and HIP 1082, and the mean surface temperatures would be ridiculous to say the least....
Although, around HIP 1082 the surface temperature would only be around 98 C
*sigh*
Looks like we might have to insert a suitable star into a suitable location into the *.stc file, then work from there. Or, attempt to find a suitable G-II class star roughly the same distance as the Ceril system is supposed to be away from the Sun.
Ahhhh, the joys of Astronomy! ::)
As for other Astronomy packages, they will be using similar databases to Celestia: Hipparcos, SAO, HDE, etc. The extra database available from the Celestia Motherlode adds over 2,000,000 stars to Celestia. When you view the Solar System from outside the Galaxy, you literally get a shell of stars centred around the Sun- I've got no ideas how wide across it is, in Lightyears. But, I would imagine that it includes just about every star within 100 LY of Earth. The Ceril system, according to Spacemaster is only 89.58 LY away....
So, I'd better keep digging in the Star Browser!
All the Best,
Kevin.
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Wet blanket time, here. Does your campaign really require that level of realism? Will your players EVER ask to see Kulthea in relation to Earth? ???
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Looks like we might have to insert a suitable star into a suitable location into the *.stc file, then work from there. Or, attempt to find a suitable G-II class star roughly the same distance as the Ceril system is supposed to be away from the Sun.
Check what the program gives for temperature on earth...my bet would be that the program does not properly model a planet with greenhouse gases. To get a planet that is suitable for living you must have a system that in the absence of life is much colder than what we have on earth. The presence of greenhouse gases have a great impact on the resulting temperature of the planet.
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Hi, Pastaav, Dutch206,
Celestia gives the Earths' mean surface temperature as 271 K, whilst wikipedia lists it as being 287- about 14 C. So, there's about 16 degrees difference- which isn't too bad considering it's a free program.
As near as I can tell, the mean surface temperature is modelled from the Spectral Class, surface temperature and size of the nearest solar body(ies- in the case of binary systems.) The problem with the stars tried, is that they are generally more massive than our Sun, even if they have a slightly lower surface temperature. But, this still gives a much greater energy output- hence a much higher mean surface temperature.
I was looking at 20 Leonis Minoris, which a web source gives a G2V star- but for some reason Celestia only lists it as a G1V star (cooler). Could be that the Celestia database needs updating based on newer stellar surveys... ???
Hmm, I can see Dutch206's point, in the Players knowing where Kulthea is in relation to the Earth (unless you are using Spacemaster). But, it would be nice to model the system so that you could for instance accurately show your players the moons in the night sky, the constellations- or for the GM something that would be handy would be the ability to work out when and where the next solar eclipse will be.
And, from Terry's point of view- he's spent so much time developing Kulthea, etc, it would be nice for him to be able to actually see his creation 'working'. (Or does that make him sound like Dr. Frankenstein?) ;)
Or at least that was my initial thought.
All the Best,
Kevin.
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Hi, All,
No Textures, asteroids, only Kulthea has any moons, etc. But, the planets are in place, and orbiting quite nicely!
I've upload a low-res screen grab, and will try to add some more as time permits.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28576267@N02/2667428784/
(Just hoping the link works- it's the first time I've used Flikr!)
All the Best,
Kevin.
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Hi, All,
No Textures, asteroids, only Kulthea has any moons, etc. But, the planets are in place, and orbiting quite nicely!
I've upload a low-res screen grab, and will try to add some more as time permits.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28576267@N02/2667428784/
(Just hoping the link works- it's the first time I've used Flikr!)
All the Best,
Kevin.
Coooooool!
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Thanks Terry!
I've uploaded some more screen shots, along with some Kulthea related 3D-Renders....
http://flickr.com/photos/28576267@N02/
All the Best,
Kevin.
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Very nice work :)
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I think that a planet natural radioactivity also modifies its surface temperature.
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Hi, All,
Just uploaded some more grabs of the various planets in the Kulthean system- textured this time. Not 100% happy with some of the Textures- I've utilized the defaults that came with Celestia.
Kulthea is still untextured however... :(
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28576267@N02/
I have added the asteroid belt, as well- but that needs some fine tuning.
If anyone wants the *.ssc files to use with Celestia, drop me an email telling me where to email it (I could probably just paste it into a post- but I don't know how big the posts are allowed to be- and the asteroid belt ssc file is pretty huge!)
I'm still not 100% sure, but to use you might have to download the 2,000,000 star database from the Celestia motherlode:
http://www.celestiamotherlode.net/catalog/extrasolar_stars.php
As I don't know if 20 Leonis Minoris/HIP 49081 is included in the default installation...?
Just a warning if you've got an older Graphics card/PC, that Celestia is very CPU/Graphics intensive- and supports 5 different display systems- giving varying levels of visual effects. (My ATI X600 only supports four of them. Some older cards might only support the Basic mode...)
All the Best,
Kevin.
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The program that I have is Astrosynthesis v2.0, I did not go to thier home page but I do think the have all the system data for download for 100ly.
MDC
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Again, very cool. Can you show what Orhan and Varin would look like from the surface of Kulthea (I've always wanted to see how big Orhan would look in 3D; I think someone calculated it way back, but it was just a disk)
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Hi, Terry et al,
I've uploaded a picture showing Orhan, Varin and Mikori, with Field of View set to 42 degrees, which approximates the human eye, and the 'camera' on Kulthea's surface.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28576267@N02/2678415860/sizes/o/
I realised whilst I was advancing time that Mikori was the wrong size. When I checked in System Maker, I found that I hadn't put a size in for Mikori. And, worse, after I corrected that oversight and uploaded the screen shot, I then realised that I'd converted all of your diameters from miles to kilometres- and entered them into System Makers radius fields. Whoops!!!
So, effectively, all the objects are actually double the size they should be. :o
More haste, less speed!
So, I need to go back through and halve the radii of all the planets and moons.....
"Kevin, you complete eeediiiiiooooooottttt!!!!!!!!!!!!" :bang:
So, here is the link for the size corrected moons:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28576267@N02/2677683627/sizes/o/
Obviously, the easiest thing to do to fit the apparent sizes of the moons with how Terry envisions them, would be to modify the orbital sizes for the moons.
All the Best,
Kevin
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That doesn't look good, even the big one picture show us a very little moons. Maybe you have put the data correctly, but i am pretty sure this isn't the size Terry was thinking to be from a viewer in Khulthea, especially Orhan.
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I'm not sure if I ever specified Orhan's diameter, but it's gravity is 40% of earth's, which would make it as big as Mars. Mars is 4200 miles in diameter, 2x that of the moon. Orhan is 210,000 miles from earth, 30,000 miles closer than our moon.
So I think it would appear much larger, at least 2x the size of our moon--though not as big as on Emer I; there must be some of that 'horizon size-illusion' going on there... ;)
Given all that of course, normally Orhan would have to be orbiting much faster or it would fall into Kulthea. But not much about Orhan is normal.
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The tidal force would also be distinctly larger than the Moon's tidal force on Earth.
The Moon's [surface] gravity is 0.1654 g.
Using the suggested .4 g for Orhan and the inverse square law, the tidal force of Orhan on Ceril VII/Kulthea would be about 3 1/6 times that of the Moon's tidal force on Earth (3.1587).
Even going with Mars' actually gravity (0.376 g) instead of .4, the tidal force is still almost 3 times that of the Moon's (2.9692).
DonMoody
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I made rough calculations back in the day. Seen from Kulthea, Orhan would have an apparent diameter of about 24 minutes of arc, or about half that of the Moon as seen from Earth. It would not be possible to get full eclipses of Ceril, only annular or partial ones. The second biggest moon would be Varin, with about 15 minutes, then Charon at 5 and a half minutes, finally Mikori at 39 or 40 seconds of arc.
I'm no scientist, though, and had to make arbitrary assumptions for a few variables.
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Hi, Terry et al,
I got the data for the Kulthean moons from the First Edition Master Atlas World Guide (pg: 17)
Yeah, I've still got it- in it's box! ;D
"By far the largest of the Kultheam moons, Orhan also has a unique characteristic: it has an atmosphere. Just over 3,500 miles in diameter, it has a very slow rotation (70 days: the same as its orbital period around the world) It is also quite massive; Orhan's gravity is 40% of Kulthea's....
The Great Moon (as it is sometimes called) orbits nearly on the ecliptic at a distance of 270,000 miles...."
So, the data I've used is as follows:
Orhan: diameter 3,500 mi; Mean Orbit 270,000 mi; Period 70 days
Varin:Â diameter 601 mi; Mean Orbit 125,000 mi; Period 10 days
Charon:diameter 350 mi; Mean Orbit 190,000 mi; Period 49 days
Mikori: diameter 99 mi; Mean Orbit 520,000 mi; No Period- guessed at 75 days
Tlilok: diameter 40 mi; Mean Orbit 8,500 mi; Period 10 days (No actual Orbital distance or Period is specified- so I guess-timated them, so that it wouldn't intersect any other orbits.)
Obviously, I've had to convert to kilometers (miles time 0.621) then for the diameters had to divide by 2 to get the radii- which is what celestia works on.
One way around it, would be to say that the 'diameters' for the moons in the first edition was a mis-print and they were actually the radii...?
I'll take it back to the Moons diameters being their radii and see how it looks.
As for the Tidal forces, mentioned by DonMoody, Kulthea doesn't possess the large contiguous landmasses that the Earth does, which are partially responsible for the height of the tides- channelling water through narrow gaps increases the apparent tidal height. The so-called Severn Bore, in Somerset, has the second largest Tidal Range in the world and can be as much as 15 metres (49 ft). Because Kulthea has much more broken landmasses, in theory, it shouldn't suffer as much as the Earth from tidal variations.
Admittedly, Kulthea suffers from the additional complication of 5 moons- all of which will have some tidal effects. Although, unless they are all in conjunction they will be trying to cancel each other out- which will further reduce the tidal range.
All the Best,
Kevin.
PS: I've uploaded a comparison between our moon and Orhan, as viewed from the surface:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28576267@N02/2680045263/sizes/o/
Hopefully, this is a bit more like Terry's vision.
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But Alten, shouldn't Orhan seem much larger than the moon, since it is about the same distance and a much larger body? And also it should be able to fully eclipse the sun.
Kevin: oops it seems that Orhan has moved about 60,000 miles closer to Kulthea between the first and third edition atlases! Hmm. That latest comparison looks good; I guess it's hard to imagine it in a real setting, cause there the moon looks teeny
I had intended for Orhan to have more severe tidal effects on Kulthea than we see on earth, though maybe not more than three times...
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Hi, Terry et al,
But Alten, shouldn't Orhan seem much larger than the moon, since it is about the same distance and a much larger body? And also it should be able to fully eclipse the sun.
Kevin: oops it seems that Orhan has moved about 60,000 miles closer to Kulthea between the first and third edition atlases! Hmm. That latest comparison looks good; I guess it's hard to imagine it in a real setting, cause there the moon looks teeny
I had intended for Orhan to have more severe tidal effects on Kulthea than we see on earth, though maybe not more than three times...
Oh, bugger!
Does this mean that I've got to throw my first Edition Atlas away?? ;)
I've corrected the distances to those given in the third Edition Atlas- I notice that some of the moon sizes have changed as well- but, I still took the 'diameter' to be the radius, when converted to km.
I've uploaded two more grabs, with the camera set at about 2 metres above sea-level- looking towards the Horizon. One shows Orhan, whilst the other shows Varin relative to the sun- and even Varin will cause total eclipses....
(Yeah, I know, there's still no Kulthean textures. I am working on it, honest!)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28576267@N02/2681146524/sizes/o/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28576267@N02/2681146422/sizes/o/ (I must apologise, as I managed to turn asterisms on, whilst trying to get a shot of one of the moons and the sun together. The time and constellation controls are too close together- particularly when you've got a full day whipping by in less than a second.)
As for the moon looking small, the Celestia manual states that a field of view of between 35 and 45 simulates what the average person would 'see' in real life- using the averages for peoples' fields of view. The problem is, is the image is being squashed into a monitor that only covers a quarter- or less- of your actual view. (Trouble is you look a bit daft with your nose virtually touching the monitor trying to squint at the image! Literally, with my 19 inch monitor, my nose is about 1 inch away, before I can't see the monitor surround- by which time I can't focus on the image anyway.)
Hopefully, the new distances and sizes is a bit more like it. ;)
As for the Orhan tidal issue- the other moons will tend to reduce the severity of the tides- except in the times of a conjunction. OK, Orhan will generally have quite an effect- and the tides will be larger than on Earth- but the other moons positions and the more broken landscape will tend to soften the effects.
But, conversely, look out, during a conjunction- the Lords of Orhan would probably be getting their feet wet!!!! ;D
All the Best,
Kevin.
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As for the Tidal forces, mentioned by DonMoody, Kulthea doesn't possess the large contiguous landmasses that the Earth does, which are partially responsible for the height of the tides- channelling water through narrow gaps increases the apparent tidal height. The so-called Severn Bore, in Somerset, has the second largest Tidal Range in the world and can be as much as 15 metres (49 ft). Because Kulthea has much more broken landmasses, in theory, it shouldn't suffer as much as the Earth from tidal variations.
I am not sure this is correct.
On Earth, the main (larger than any other factor) tidal constituent is the Moon (via its gravitational force relative to its distance from the earth); the second largest tidal constituent (less than half that of the Moon's) is the Sun.
On Kulthea, even with its multiple moons, the main tidal constituent would be Orhan (compare the mass of Orhan to the total combined mass of *all* of Kulthea's other moons).
When the Sun/Earth/Moon are in a line, tidal amplitude is the greatest (spring tide).
When the Earth/Moon line is perpendicular to the Sun/Earth line, tidal amplitude is the least (neap tide).
In theory, if the Earth:
- was tide locked (i.e. the same side always facing the Sun)
- had no above water land surfaces
- was completely covered with water
- and the water covering had a uniform depth
[i.e. if the Earth was a 'round ball of rock' evenly covered with water]
the theoretical amplitude of oceanic tides caused by the Moon would be a bit more than half a meter and that caused by the Sun would be about a quarter of a meter.
In theory, this means spring tide amplitude would be a little more than three-quarters of a meter and neap tide amplitude would be a little more than one-quarter of a meter.
But the Earth does rotate, is not a perfectly round ball and is not evenly covered with water.
In addition, coastal characteristics - such as underwater topography and coastline shape - effect the amount of difference between the higher high water and the lower low water (and are the cause tidal bores, which are fairly rare).
These are, in general, localized effects whereas the main driving forces of tides (the Moon then a not too close second, the Sun) are worldwide.
Even in areas where coastal characteristics are not such that the amplitude of the tide is increased, the difference between high and low tides is easily noticed.
If the main force behind the tidal effect was tripled, one would think it would be even more so.
DonMoody
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Hi, Don,
I'm not trying to say that there won't be tides on Kulthea- there's got to be tides, simply because there are massive bodies around the Solar System.
As Terry has presented the moons, Orhan would have a much greater effect on the tidal amplitude, than our moon has ever had on the Earths' tides.
Acting on it's own it would probably be pretty catastrophic. :o
(Assuming that Orhan doesn't get pulled apart by the sun/Kulthean tidal forces acting on it, of course- when it's on the sunward side of Kulthea.)
But, there's effectively three other moons (we can pretty much ignore Tlilok- that's effectively part of Orhan's gravity) that are all pulling in different directions on Kulthea's seas. OK, Individually their Gravity is probably pretty small compared to Orhan's, but their combined masses could be equal to Orhan's. in which case you would be left with the Sun acting as your sole effect on the tides.
Admittedly, that would need a pretty darned unlikely orbital scenario to completely cancel out Orhans' tidal force- and I'd hate to have to try to work out the maths involved.
Basically, I'm trying to rationalise how there is still even a planet left, for the Players to wander around on- getting up the noses of Dragonlords, stepping on Priests' Arnak toes and generally upsetting all the forces of darkness that we know and love. :)
The Atlases all state how the sea depth is pretty uniform, and that the ocean area is much larger on Kulthea than it is on Earth- because the landmasses are far more fragmentary. These tend to mean, that overall the tidal amplitude shouldn't be too much worse than on the Earth.
However, in certain areas- due to the shape of the land formations, etc, there will be tidal bores that put the Bay of Fundy to shame- and these areas will be pretty much uninhabitable, because of it.
Hopefully, that all makes sense- I'm tired and it's late! ;)
All the best,
Kevin.
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Re: orbits, the one I had calculated put Orhan much farther away. But once again I'll be the first to admit I'm no authority on the subjects of celestial mechanics...
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Hi, Alten, et al,
Yes, you are right, in 'reality' Orhan should be significantly further away than is stated.
For Orhan's orbit, using the 'System Maker for Celestia's' Orbital Stability Calculator and Terry's value of a 70 day Orbital Period, then Orhan's orbit- to be stable- has to have a semi-major (Mean distance) axis of 80,2258.53840548 km, or for the Orbital Distance as stated, then the Rotational Period must be 19.1565835265318 days!
So, in reality it does have to be significantly further away- over double the distance away- to keep to the stated 70 day Orbital Period.
Alternatively, the mass has to drop- taking it down by 50% only reduces the orbital distance to 76,2177.370198947 km. Even taking the Great Moons mass down to 0.1 (another 50%) of Earths, still only drops the orbital distance to 740450.982889717 which still doesn't help us very much.
And, this doesn't take into account the other moons, orbiting Kulthea. NASA could probably work out that particular Orbital Dance, even taking into account things like Frame Dragging and Time Dilation- but we don't need that level of accuracy.
So, we've got a choice- either go with Classical Physics- or go with what Terry's actually written. I'm pretty sure that a little judicious application of the Essaence can solve some of the problems! :D
All the Best,
Kevin.
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Mmmm just a few ideas.
At the beginning there was no Essaence in the Kulthean system, but the Lords only arrived on Orhan afterwards. So Orhan may have started on an orbit farther than it is now, but after their arrival the Lords moved it (for their own reasons: watching over Kulthea ? Easier Channeling or ferrying souls ?) closer to its current orbit, which is only possible due to Essaence manipulation.
Now this does seem to contradict the fact that they tried to make their presence on Orhan inconscpicuous and deter the K'at'viiri to land on it. Some k'ta'viir astronom is bound to have noticed that the orbit isn't right. But maybe there are so many "inconsistencies" in the system that it was deemed no more severe than others...
On the other hand, having such a system must have caused terrible headaches to a Kulthean Kepler or Newton trying to figure out the laws of celestial mechanics...
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Another question I'd like to have answered is that of Char?n. OK, it has a polar orbit, but the plane of that orbit must also rotate exactly as Kulthea rotates on its own axis, else there would be an apparent east-to-west movement as seen from Kulthea , wouldn't there ? Every night Charon would rise in the east and set in the west, only a bit higher or lower every time...
And if so, what longitude is the plane aligned on ? Aligned with Votania would be nice...
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But, there's effectively three other moons (we can pretty much ignore Tlilok- that's effectively part of Orhan's gravity) that are all pulling in different directions on Kulthea's seas. OK, Individually their Gravity is probably pretty small compared to Orhan's, but their combined masses could be equal to Orhan's. in which case you would be left with the Sun acting as your sole effect on the tides.
I thought the numbers available showed that the mass of Orhan was a good amount more than all of the other moons combined.
Also, as you noted here:
Admittedly, that would need a pretty darned unlikely orbital scenario to completely cancel out Orhans' tidal force- and I'd hate to have to try to work out the maths involved.
it would be virtually impossible for the tidal constituents from Kulthea's moons to cancel each other out.
It is much more likely there would be times when the tidal forces of the moons [somewhat] cancel each other out and [somewhat] reinforce each other.
And a rather infrequent times when the tidal forces of all the moons and the sun reinforce each other.
And an even less frequent time when Kulthea is at or near perihelion while multiple moons are at or near perigree; in such a case, the tidal forces would be at or near their maximum.
(And equally rare/infrequent times when the positions of these bodies would cause the tidal effects to virtually cancel each other out and there would be very little tide.)
The Atlases all state how the sea depth is pretty uniform, and that the ocean area is much larger on Kulthea than it is on Earth- because the landmasses are far more fragmentary. These tend to mean, that overall the tidal amplitude shouldn't be too much worse than on the Earth.
I am not sure this is correct.
Please keep in mind I am at best a layman in this area.
As such, I am not sure what roll or to what extent the macro aspects of landmasses play in the amplitude of tides but I thought these factors were more localized.
(Although I do know that there are some interesting aspects to tides around larger islands such as New Zealand - but even that is more of a 'what is the timing and flow directions of the tide around this island' type effect.)
DonMoody
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The other thing is to remember to take into account the effects of magic in classical physics. Just kidding.
MDC
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Hi, All,
This is getting a little heavy... :-[
Yeah, Don- you're quite correct- using the stated mass/distances, Orhan alone would cause absolutely catastrophic tidal effects- there's also a high chance that combined with the solar wind, that it would also be stripping the Kulthean atmosphere at a quite a rate. (The Earth has very little atmospheric hydrogen for a similar reason.)
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Hi, All,
Sorry, I accidentally posted before I'd finished the message!
This is getting a little heavy... :-[
Just quickly working out the attraction due to Gravity, F= Gravitational Constant times (Mass 1 times Mass 2) over the distance between them squared, the force of attraction between Kulthea and Orhan is 42.015 times greater than the attraction between the Earth and the Moon. :o
(As anyone who's fallen out of a tree will tell you, Gravity is a real pain!)
Yeah, Don- you're quite correct- using the stated mass/distances, Orhan alone would cause absolutely catastrophic tidal effects on both the seas and the Tectonic Plates- there's also a high chance that combined with the solar wind, that it would also be stripping the Kulthean atmosphere at a quite a rate. (The Earth has very little atmospheric hydrogen for a similar reason.)
(Sorry pressed the wrong button, there!)
Anyway, the reduction in the atmospheric mass, would also reduce the boiling point of water- which with the increased volcanism, would start causing more and more water to turn to water vapour- some of which, would again, be lost to space. Then, we get into the effects of the reduced weight of water on the planets surface, which current theory seems to indicate would further increase volcanism- as seen by the increase in incidence of tectonic activity in the last few years- attributed in the Earth's case to the melting of Glaciers and the redistribution of the weight. (Although, the jury is still undecided on that one- the theory tends to support it, but there's not enough hard evidence.) If that theory is right, then we get even more water being boiled off- a lot being lost to space. This could quite quickly, in geological terms, end up with Kulthea with only some of the heavier (and generally highly toxic) gases left, very little surface water, and almost zero chance of life evolving....
(Note, the above completely ignores the other Moons and the additional tidal effect of centrifugal force, caused by Kulthea's rotation. Kulthea's diameter is larger than the earths, so it must rotate slightly faster, as well....)
Conversely, Orhan's atmosphere wouldn't have stood a chance.
Fortunately, we know that this hasn't happened- because Terry's written about it.
So, that leaves two choices, either get Terry- bless him- to re-write everything, or we ignore the extreme effects that Physics dictates.
My vote continues to go with ignoring the worst of the effects of Physics. ;D
Part of the problem, I think is that it is very difficult for people to visualise the distances involved in Celestial Mechanics, and the fact that whilst the Gravitational Constant is very small- 6.6742 by 10 to the power of -11 metres cubed per Kilogram per second- it still works over an infinite distance.
This makes it difficult to visualise the effects of even slight deviations in distance or mass, between massive objects.
How do you visualise the fact that there's a Gravitiational attraction between you and the monitor in front of you, as you read this?
Microscopic, admittedly, but it's there.
Hell, there were people I did 'A' Level Physics with, who were still struggling with the theory after we'd finished the exams.....
Which either means that they weren't that good at Physics, or the Lecturer wasn't that good at explaining things.
Whew- hopefully that makes sense!
All the Best,
Kevin
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Another question I'd like to have answered is that of Char?n. OK, it has a polar orbit, but the plane of that orbit must also rotate exactly as Kulthea rotates on its own axis, else there would be an apparent east-to-west movement as seen from Kulthea , wouldn't there ? Every night Charon would rise in the east and set in the west, only a bit higher or lower every time...
And if so, what longitude is the plane aligned on ? Aligned with Votania would be nice...
Hi, Alten,
Yes, you are quite right, that Charon would rise towards the east and set in the west- but, it would rise higher in the sky each night- until you get it full and at Zenith on one particular night. This, is the Night of the Third Moon. And, it occurs in different places, every 149 days.
This implies that it's plane of orbit is 'fixed' in relation to a line drawn from the centre of the sun through Kulthea.
There doesn't seem to be any mechanism in Celestia, at least, to modify the 'Longitude of the ascending node' which would be what was required, to keep Charon orbiting directly over Votania. (Honest! That's what it's called! I didn't make it up!)
And, it does seem to be a set value for the Planets....
I haven't as yet, had a lot of time in the last couple of days, to try running Celestia with time sped up, to see the dynamics of the Moons around Kulthea. (I'm actually in work, and *ahem* am supposed to be more interested in Atomic Emission testing, and other terminally dull and boring stuff that a highly paid and dedicated Laboratory Technician should be interested in. Unfortunately, I'm neither highly paid, nor dedicated!)
Fortunately, I'm on Holiday for three weeks, so I'll have more time to play around then.
Hope this helps,
All the Best,
Kevin.
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This is cool! Thanks for doing this project Kevin, good stuff!
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I found this in my archive (can't remember where I found this originally) :
(http://mathhatt.free.fr/jdr/rm/sw/divers/lunes.jpg)
What do you think ?
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I remember this! It's pretty close to what I'd intended. So the Emer I cover isn't TOO exaggerated...
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Terry, what about the vibrant atmosphere on Orhan....did you intend it to look so earth-like from Kulthea...or should it look more moon like?
Does anyone know who might have originally made the moon graphic above?
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Terry, what about the vibrant atmosphere on Orhan....did you intend it to look so earth-like from Kulthea...or should it look more moon like?
Well actually the graphic above is probably closer to what it would look like most of the time, since it is covered in clouds. But that didn't look very dramatic. Orhan under the clouds is very earthlike, so if they ever broke up (which they might once in awhile, depending on the Ess?nce and such), it would look like on the Emer cover. This wouldn't be shocking for the Kultheans, since they know the Lords of Orhan live there. Andraax would have a strange mental block though and not see it as a habitable world.
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Hi, All,
I've just uploaded a comparison of the moon sizes, to our own moon at Flickr:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28576267@N02/
I've also made my first foray into the murky world of converting the existing Goode's Interrupted Holosine maps of Kulthea, into the distorted Mercator style that Celestia requires. (I've learned more about cartography and mapping projections in the last day or so, than is probably good for me!?!? ???)
I've only done the main part of the Western Hemisphere, so far- I've still got to create the grid that will allow me to distort the Eastern Hemisphere- then I hopefully can combine the two and add the polar regions.
Then, it all needs colouring, I thought that the best way would be to grab bits from real satellite images of the Earth- to try to make it as realistic as possible.
All the Best,
Kevin.
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Hi, Terry et al,
I've uploaded some shots of Kulthea, roughly textured. I think I've underestimated the size of the polar regions however. :-[
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28576267@N02/2696237793/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28576267@N02/2696960092/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28576267@N02/2696145095/
I'm indebted to the lovely Lahl at www.Imagine3D.org for her superb tutorials on creating seamless planar and spherical textures- without which I'd probably still be scratching my head and swearing.
All the Best,
Kevin.
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... there's also a high chance that combined with the solar wind, that it would also be stripping the Kulthean atmosphere at a quite a rate. (The Earth has very little atmospheric hydrogen for a similar reason.)
Isn't solar wind stripping greatly reduced by the magnetic field?
If the solar wind of Ceril was stronger, I think the [increased] solar wind stripping could readily be countered by a stronger magnetic field (or an aessance field which includes an effect similar to this aspect of the magnetic field).
But just as Orhan would be pulling at the water (i.e. tide effects), Orhan would be pulling at the atmosphere (i.e. atmosphere loss).
But if Orhan also has an atmosphere, this could be more of a gas exchange (Kulthea also pulling from Orhan) than a stripping.
As for the mass of Orhan vs the mass of all the other moons ...
Using these numbers:
Orhan: diameter 3,500 mi
Varin: diameter 601 mi
Charon:diameter 350 mi
Mikori: diameter 99 mi
Tlilok: diameter 40 mi
And presuming each moon has the same average density, then:
Orhan is over 150x as massive as Varin, Charon, Mikori and Tlilok combined.
So the likely 'order of effect' would be:
Orhan
Ceril
Varin
Charon
Mikori
Tlilok
DonMoody
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Hi, Don,
Yeah, Kulthea/Orhan would probably 'share' their magnetic fields (as well as their Essaence fields) the same as the Earth and Moon do- assuming that Orhan has a molten iron core. And, the magnetosphere does most definitely help prevent all but the most energetic of the Cosmic Rays from reaching too far into the Earths' atmosphere. Some get through, but it's only a tiny fraction of a tiny percentage of the Sun's total output.
The order of gravitational effect on Kulthea, is most likely exactly as you've listed (Tlilok can effectively be thought of as part of Orhan's effect- as it's orbiting the moon, rather than Kulthea.) Although, Varin must be fairly dense- as it's orbit is between Kulthea and Orhan's- otherwise it might well have been pulled apart by the tidal forces between them.
Just the effect of Orhan's gravity would be extremely severe- given it's relatively close distance. (I certainly wouldn't want to live on a planet with moon that dense, that close...) :o
But, as Terry has written it like that, we've just got to come up with a rationale for why it does work- as opposed to why it shouldn't. ;)
I wonder if the Kulthean's have got it wrong, and the frequently severe sea conditions aren't because Shaal is angry- it's because he's lost control. He's actually on Kulthea charged with moderating the sea's worst effects- but the various factors affecting the world can make him lose control, from time to time. Same effect- just the perceived and actual motives are the opposite way around. (It would also explain why he spends most of his time on Kulthea as opposed to on Orhan.)
All the Best,
Kevin.
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Hi, Terry et al,
I've increased the size of the North and South Poles- hopefully they are large enough now?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28576267@N02/2697456793/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28576267@N02/2698276302/
I've also uploaded the Mercator Projection of Kulthea, feel free to download and play around with as you see fit. :)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28576267@N02/2697460445/
All the Best,
Kevin.
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Kevin these are so cool. Yes the larger pole looks better; the big ring crater is circular now, as it should be.
And I like your idea about Shaal.
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Great work Kevin !
Just one tiny detail: would it be possible to get "raw" images, without the names and lines, just like they would appear to the naked eye?
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Hi, Alten,
No sooner requested, than done! :)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28576267@N02/2699564118/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28576267@N02/2699563700/ (Note, that because Celestia only renders objects over a certain size, at a certain distance, that Tlilok appears as a white dot on Orhan. I think this is to conserve system resources.)
I turned off Info, Planet, Star, Nebula, Galaxy, Comet names, the Celestial Grid, and turned on Clouds and Cloud Shadows- to better approximate what you'd actually see. (I think it could do with a better cloud map though- currently, it's using the default Earth Cloud map that comes with Celestia.)
(Edit.)
Added a shot from deeper space, showing the clouds on Orhan with Kulthea in the distance.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28576267@N02/2698793183/
All the Best,
Kevin.
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I think I can speak for a lot of people and say "Thank you."
MDC
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Nice work Kevin! Thanks for all the work here. Are these the largest res files available? You mentioned on one of the flickr images that you used Imagine, any chance you could send me the Imagine files for that? My email is vroomfogle at vroomfogle dot com Again, this is cool stuff, I'd be interested, can't wait to see what else you come up with.
What format do you give Celestia the global data in to do the 3d render?
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Can't thank you enough :worthy:
This is really great work.
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Hi, markc, Vroomfogle, Alten, et al,
It's no big deal.
I just thought that it would be nice to be able to give Terry something, to say 'thank you' for all the hard work he's put into entertaining myself, my players and all the other GM's and players out there.
Unless I rob a bank or loot a tomb, I doubt I'll ever be able to give him a large amount of the green folding stuff to say thank you- so I thought of something else. :)
All the Best,
Kevin.
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Those pictures are really really nice !!!
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Hi, All,
Just been experimenting with mapping satellite imagery of the Earth onto the Kulthean map, to try to give more realistic colours. Just a couple of test images done with a 4K (4096x2048) texture map.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28576267@N02/
Yeah, I know- it still needs some work! ;)
(Edit)
I've uploaded 1, 2 and 4 K Mercator Posterized copies of the map (the 8 K version exceeded my 10 MB upload limit and tight-fisted git that I am, I'm not paying so I can upload the odd 10 MB+ file.)
Please feel free to download and colour them yourselves (there's bound to be someone who's better with photoshop than I am. Bo-Bo the chimp, for one!) ;)
All the Best,
Kevin.
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Wow these new maps are spectacular! Especially the globe one. It looks so... real.
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/28576267@N02/2699563700/
This image makes me think of a pissed off Captain with a Mass Driver Platform, raining down death for that Special Queens Birthday.
Impressive, your work single handedly put the entire Shadow World into perspective for my 13 year old.
Well done.
E
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Hi, All,
Started trying to do the map again- this time, I'm cutting bits out of a 4K Earth map and positioning them as best as possible- currently over Jaiman. (I think it's going to take a while to map the whole of Kulthea....)
Am also using a 2K cloud map, rather than the default 1K map- which looks a lot more realistic.
Probably would have gotten more done tonight, if I hadn't been drilling in a wall and managed to hit an electric cable- and blown all of the lights! Whoops!!! :bang:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28576267@N02/2714555077/sizes/o/
All the Best,
Kevin.
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That's pretty sweet.
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WOW, last one was very real. Incredible!
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I find this especially cool since I work in the field of remote sensing (satellite imagery), great idea using earth imagery for realism!
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Very nice !
Is it possible to adapt the texture and shapes of clouds using the Essaence flows charts ?
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Hi, All,
mathhatt: Yeah, Celestia allows you to use two default colour/bump/specular maps (I haven't even looked at the bump and specular maps yet!)
One is often an artists impression- and is the one normally displayed- and the other has 'lok' in the filename. (eg: Kulthea.jpg and Kulthea-lok.jpg.)
The lok is short for Limit of Knowledge- as there are still some objects in the Solar System that we haven't been able to photograph from all angles- so the un-photographed areas are left blank in the lok files. So, you could have two colour/bump and specular maps for Kulthea- one that shows both Hemispheres- and one that shows only the Western Hemisphere's for the Players to see, for example. (The normally used maps are usually based on the existing lok map, with some artistic license used for the unknown bits.)
The essaence flows could in theory be done as an lok cloud map- although, I'll have to check that just to make sure. But, you could create additional colour maps of Kulthea and simply add the flows to them, and change the texture used, as required. (The other problem with using clouds to show the Essaence Flows, is that Celestia expects the cloud texture to rotate relative to the planets' surface- like real clouds do. So, you would have to set their motion to zero in the *.ssc file, save it, then re-open Celestia.)
The other 'trick' it supports is *-loc.ssc data files (location files) which allow you add things like Cities, Observatories, Landing Sites, Mountains, Seas, Craters, Valleys, Land Masses and the enigmatic 'Other Features'. The View>Locations menu allows you to check on or off certain features, and change the minimum feature size displayed. (The real trick with Kulthea will be working out where in degrees, minutes and seconds of Longitude and Latitude all the various bits actually are!!)
Vroomfogle: Hmmm, you work in the field of remote sensing/satellite imagery? Perhaps you might be the best qualified person to maps bit's of Earth Satellite images to the Kulthea map... ;)
Seriously, though, I just thought that if I'm trying to create as realistic a map as possible for Kulthea, the best place to start would be to use real satellite imagery. And, as Earth's the only Kulthea-esque planet we've got that type of imagery for..... :)
Thanks for the encouragement though!
All the Best,
Kevin.
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Kevin, maybe at some point I'd consider doing such as project but you seem to be doing great so far and I've got too many projects on my plate to consider it now! I've still got to go back to CC3 and finish my Emer map and do Jaiman.
I had entertained the idea of generating a proper earth datum for Kulthea and editing the map so I could reproject it into different projections and read it into a GIS program.....
But really you are doing a great job here, the patching of earth data onto the kulthea map is a great idea. Still working on it?
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Hi, Vroomfogle,
I've been away staying with the Brother and Sister-in-law for a few days, so haven't had any time to play with the maps (couldn't really drag my desktop with me!) But, yes I am still going to be working on the map(s- Specular and Bumps will be attempted at some point.)
I'd also like to get a locations file set up, so that seas, landmasses, realms and other features can be labelled as desired- although that's going to be fun and games to do. (I'd also like to get set up some way of converting Kulthean Dates to Julian Calendar Dates, so that you can do things like set the date and actually see what moons are out, and things like that. Again, that's something that might well take a little while to sort out- as it means playing with various Orbital parameters so that everything meshes together...)
All the Best,
Kevin.
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Hi, All,
Well, the bump-mapping is pretty atrocious at the moment, the specular map could do with a bit of a tweak, but Jaiman is fairly complete and Emer is getting there- although it doesn't possess any mountain ranges yet.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28576267@N02/2739986196/sizes/o/
Just to prove that I'm not lazing around in the glorious British Summer we're (not) having. Great weather for ducks... :ducky:
All the Best,
Kevin.
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Very nice indeed :)
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Hi, All,
Just uploaded some shots of the Kulthean night sky, in an attempt to get some sort of starmap started.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28576267@N02/sets/72157606654551222/detail/
They show the starts from 0 degrees through 360 degrees in 20 degree steps, along with the Northern and Southern 'poles'.
Unfortunately, I was a bit lazy and didn't want to wait for time to advance- even sped up, so the Ceril Star is visible in two pictures Twelve and Fourteen Hours.... :-[
There's also two bands of stars missing- between 30 and 60 and -30 and -60 degrees.
I've left the Celestial Grid On, in case anyone wants to try patching the pictures together, to create one huge starmap. (Hint, hint! Perhaps if someone does make a start they can pass it to Terry so he can start playing 'join-the-dots' to create the definitive Kulthean constellations!) ;)
I'll try to get the missing stars added tomorrow evening.
All the Best,
Kevin.
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Oooh, Kulthean Constellations, how cool that would be !
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Hi, All,
Well, I cannot believe that I'm back to work already!?!?
The three weeks flew past, and I didn't get half of what I wanted to do, done. :(
Anyway, I've improved the Bump mapping, and am gradually working on the Colour mapping- and have started to play with the location file:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28576267@N02/2772923228/sizes/o/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28576267@N02/2772075793/sizes/o/
Currently, it only shows the continents and the Lonely Sea- which is a start. (The fun bit is keep having to modify the file, exit Celestia and the rerun Celestia to get it to load the modified files. Memory Fragmentation city...)
Hopefully, I'll be able to finish adding the seas, then start looking at adding the various countries/realms to the location file- although I need to figure out the best way to use the size parameter- and the various code letters Celestia recognizes...
All the Best,
Kevin.
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DUDE! Rock on! Those are awesome!
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Hi, All,
I know I should have been working on the Kulthean maps, but after reading Xa-ar, I just couldn't resist doing something else...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28576267@N02/2855788204/
I promise I'll get back to work!
All the Best,
Kevin.
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nice work :)
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Hi, all of the Links do Stars and Pictures of Kulthea are no longer valid- so anybody have these somewhere und could it post again please? Thanks micael
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Sorry, I haven't used my Flickr account for years now......
Looks like the closed it. :'(
https://1drv.ms/f/s!AuOfIRuJvq23j5gtVBFgCcboKO6qkg?e=AklfKa
Link to the files on OneDrive.
All the best,
Kevin
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Very nice, thank you- a few questions to the pictures: 1. Why so many similar continental maps? Some of them seem to have more white colours? Why you have done some many different northern stars views? Thanks micael
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The actual Kulthea map is two different maps (West and East hemispheres) joined together - both with different colour schemes.
That then had to be spherically mapped onto a sphere created in an old 3D rendering program called Imagine 3D and then the sphere had to be opened up to convert it to the Mercator Projection required by Celestia.
Then I started brushing on image data from a real satellite photo of the Earth, gradually covering up the original large resolution image and then scaling it to the size required for mapping it to Celestia, testing how it looks, back to editing, rinse and repeat.....
Very time consuming.
Thinking about it, AI would probably actually help?
But, like so many things, life got in the way - grandkids, etc.
I know I uploaded the Celestia files I'd done up that point to the Iron Crown Website, so it could have been dragged and dropped into the program directory but don't think it got put up - and I suffered catastrophic hard drive failure and lost all bar the images I'd uploaded to OneDrive.......
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I have a copy of that set of Celestia files. They were available somewhere at some point, or maybe you sent them to me directly, I really don't remember because it was a very long time ago. I can send them to you or post them if you like.
I used them as a base for my own personal take on the Kulthean system and updated them for Celestia 1.5 and then again recently for 1.6.4. So if you don't mind and anyone is interested I could share my version as well.
In fact, I've been planning for some time now to make my version available since I'm reasonably happy with it even if it's not quite as complete as I would like and because I always hesitate before sharing something I've done for my own fun where it can be criticized by others.
Here's what I've written in my ReadMe so far.
This is an add-on for Celestia (https://celestiaproject.space/) and it would not be possible if kmanktelow on the I.C.E. Forums (now https://ironcrown.co.uk/ICEforums) hadn't shared a set of files for Celestia many years ago.
This was developed using version 1.64 on Windows but should work with with all 1.64 and newer versions on all platforms. I don't recommend the Mobile Celestia version on the Microsoft Store which has a broken implementation of the event handlers which require the scripts to be constantly running to work. (I don't know if that script behavior is a bug introduced in that particular version or an intentional change for all of Mobile Celestia but if intentional then the developers of Mobile Celestia don't understand the concept of event handlers. There's an alternate callback mechanism that is tied to the script execution and the event handlers were supposed to persist even after a script terminates. Sorry, had to vent my frustration on that one because the newer version has some really nice improvements otherwise.)
The parts of the addon are the resource files needed to add the Kulthean star system, a few scripts, and a diagram of the new keyboard map provided by the scripts.
The resources are in the "extras/Ceril-Kulthea" folder and that matches how they should be added to your Celestia installation.
The scripts can live anywhere but Celestia does have a folder specifically for scripts. Note that you can start Celestia using the "Kulthean Key Map.celx" script if you want to use all my extra key functions.
The "Kulthean Custom Key Map Layout.html" file shows all of the new key bindings added by the "Kulthean Key Map.celx" script. There are a number of convenience functions not directly related to Kulthea but the most important new features are bound to keys v and d. The v key toggles a display of the current Kuthean date and time. The d key puts you in a date entry mode so you can directly set a particular date and time. Since Kulthean dates span such a huge range of time the default "Set Time" dialog is terribly inadequate (and would be based on Earth time which isn't very convenient if you want to look at things from a Kulthean perspective).
If you have trouble with (or just don't want to use) the "Kulthean Key Map.celx" script there are two others with more limited features. The "Kulthean Goto Kulthea.celx" script will simply and quickly position you in orbit above Gryphon College. The "Kulthean Date Mode.celx" script shows the current Kulthea date and time and allows you to change it by pressing d, but implements the feature using a keyboard callback which won't interfere with any other key remapping you might have and is only active while the script itself is running. (Press ESC to cancel the script at any time.)
For this addon I have chosen the star 9 Cet/ HIP 1803 / HD 1835 / SAO 147237 to be Kulthea's sun, Ceril. This G3V class star in Cetus (the Whale) is has the right size and luminosity and is the best match I can find matching the the SpaceMaster description of Ceril. It's a bit closer to Earth than it should be, but most SpaceMaster star positions and distances are acknowledged to be wildly inaccurate and I wanted a star of the right type, size, and brightness to be very similar in appearance from Kulthea as Sol is from Earth. The file Ceril.stc can be edited if you want to have Ceril be some other star. The source files I was working from used TYC 3698-1970-1 and the line to restore it to that position is commented out but in Ceril.stc.
The Kulthea_locs.ssc file has the Western hemisphere continent and ocean names.
The Ceril_Asteroids.ssc file was generated by kmanktelow and the only changes I made were to anchor them to the name "Ceril" so that you can decide the true location of Kulthea by editing Ceril.stc.
The Ceril.ssc file has updated information for the rest of the system including Kulthea's moons, all of the planets, and the comet Sa'kain.
All values have been set to match the Shadow World Master Atlas 3rd and 4th editions and an asteroid placeholder is included so that Kulthea is counted as the 7th planet.
Kulthea's orbit and rotation are set to align with Earth so the grid views work and its year of 350 (25-hour) days matches the average Earth year of 365.2425 (24-hour) days.
Earth's Solstice on 2000 Dec 21 at 13:37:03 UTC is synchronized with the Kulthean Solstice of SEI 2751-1-1 at the start of the Predawn Quintar in central Emer and the solstices remain aligned for many thousands of years with only minor variations.
Kulthea's moons are all aligned so that they are new and full on the correct dates each year. I've even managed to get Sa'kain's orbit set so that Charon is in its tail on TEI 2625-2-1.
And for fun, there's a "Rift" at the L1 Lagrange point between Orhan and Kulthea. (While in the Ceril system, just hit Enter and search for Rift. Otherwise it's very hard to find because it is so small.)
Finally, there are the textures for Kulthea. I've created the base textures in a semi-realistic style. I'm not an artist and I actually prefer the look to be slightly "map-like" rather than fully realistic. The "limit of knowledge" textures act as an overlay to show the roads, regions, towns, and other sites of Jaiman. (I haven't gotten to any other continents yet.)
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Feel free to share it, it would be great to play with Celestia again... ;D
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I've uploaded both the original 2008 files I had and my revisions to the TinyPortal Download Vault. We'll see how long it takes an administrator to notice.
In the mean time I've also put them on Dropbox along with some screenshots for those who are curious.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/6ong1vxx5r2f2orcm6wtc/AAy4dvJltC8TJ96XaXgGlK8?rlkey=exu9uolrjutv4zctf1r676kuf&st=hhr1hl9u&dl=0
I can also make the source textures I created in Gimp available, but just the main Kulthean texture is almost 1GB using the compressed settings so I'm not putting those up unless someone promises to take them and improve them. (The source texture is 16384x8192 and has multiple layers involved, with an even more detailed version over Jaiman.) The actual plugin files are using the Virtual Texture system which breaks that into smaller, more manageable chunks.
That Dropbox folder also has a file called "KultheanCalendar.html" which includes a Javascript-based calculator and clock that shows paired Kulthean and Terran times. Since Dropbox is just a file storage and sharing site, you will need to download that html file if you want to use it, so I've also included a screenshot of what that clock looks like. This is technically unrelated to the Celestia stuff, but the same date and time conversions are included in the Celestia scripts. Just without the cute clock display.