RMU Creature Law typos and issues thread

[luzbel]

I've finally finished reading the talent section. I'll address some points that are partly what I think might be typos and partly questions.

1. Wings flyings. Table 4.1.f. The table shows the the old Brisk movement pace instead of (I thingk) Jog pace.

2. Aura elemental explosion: The ball attack doesn't mention the +10 to the central target, unlike happens in elemental touch. I understand it doesn't apply, but it would be good to mention it.

3. Speaking of elemental touch, what happens if a vampire grapple you? Additional critical or ball attack?

4. Flattened body: The size and water requirements for hiding have "large" and "big" swapped. Large appears twice. It would be good to know how much is needed for enormous creatures. 1´ seems very little for small creatures. Maybe 1´is for tiny?. And 100´for enormous? Anyway It needs to be rephrased.

5. Eloctrolocation active and pasive. Pasive looks better and is cheaper than active. Probably I cant grasp something.

6. If Sight Near-shigted if for beyond 10´, I guess that Far-sighted is below that.

7. Sight Gecko. No bonuses to anything other than the color? It seems like a kind of minor version of Sight Stomatopod.

8. Tremorsense. Is this enough to ignore invisibility? Or just to pinpoint the target?

That's enough. Thank you, and I promise not to bother you anymore this week.

[jdale]

Poison Injection is in Core Law, page 119.

Some questions:
1. Creature law have lc: light crossbow but in Core Law there is no light crossbow, just regular crossbow or maybe hand crossbow. I understand is the first one.
2. Aligator/Cocodrile have attack sequence tier I. That have no sense. I think must be tier II for bite + instant grapple. In Beta Creature Law that was the case.
3. Poison Petrification: "If the Physical RR is failed, after the onset time of 1-2 rnds, the poison starts to turn the victim to stone." We know the onset time and how last the petrification but how many time last the process to turn to stone?
4. Stink Gland: "... with an additional -5/lvl penalty, or suffer a -20 penalty for nausea for one day. Any social interaction by victims of the spray will be modified by -10/lvl....". If Im not wrong those x/lvl must be x/tier.
5. About swooping attack, looks like an air charge. I like the mechanic but the part where it say "To simplify the Charge maneuver penalties or bonuses attached to the attack..." What are those bonuses? I know the negatives to attack when you charge and the size bonus but bonuses to attack??

1. Yes, we just call light crossbows "crossbows" now.
2. Judgment call, it might have been changed to make the DP costs work out.
3. You could either have it occur immediately after the 1-2 rounds, or use the onset times for conversion poisons as listed in Core Law.
4. Based on the stats for skunk, it looks like they should all be /Tier except the range is 1'/lvl.
5. The bonus is the size bonus.

[jdale]

I've finally finished reading the talent section. I'll address some points that are partly what I think might be typos and partly questions.

1. Wings flyings. Table 4.1.f. The table shows the the old Brisk movement pace instead of (I thingk) Jog pace.

Yes, should be Jog pace.

2. Aura elemental explosion: The ball attack doesn't mention the +10 to the central target, unlike happens in elemental touch. I understand it doesn't apply, but it would be good to mention it.

The creature itself is in the center, so no one else can be there (unless incorporeal I guess).

3. Speaking of elemental touch, what happens if a vampire grapple you? Additional critical or ball attack?

Personally, I would only apply the additional critical. One or the other. But it's a judgment call as written.

4. Flattened body: The size and water requirements for hiding have "large" and "big" swapped. Large appears twice. It would be good to know how much is needed for enormous creatures. 1´ seems very little for small creatures. Maybe 1´is for tiny?. And 100´for enormous? Anyway It needs to be rephrased.

I would go with:
4' for Medium, 8' for Big, 15' for Large, 25' for Huge, 50' for Gigantic, and 100' for Enormous

5. Eloctrolocation active and pasive. Pasive looks better and is cheaper than active. Probably I cant grasp something.

Passive only detects living things and electrical sources. Active also detects things that are not living or electrical, like rocks. It's "particularly sensitive" to living things, but not limited to them.

6. If Sight Near-shigted if for beyond 10´, I guess that Far-sighted is below that.

The intent is that any time you are searching for a thing or doing a close inspection, you suffer the penalties. You can't avoid the penalties by saying "I step back 10'."

7. Sight Gecko. No bonuses to anything other than the color? It seems like a kind of minor version of Sight Stomatopod.

You'll have to decide when those advantages are applicable.

8. Tremorsense. Is this enough to ignore invisibility? Or just to pinpoint the target?

I would treat it as you know the location of the target but you still can't see them. As per Spell Law section 10.11, that means there is still a -50 penalty to hit them.

[luzbel]

A greater giant storm, level 30, have +83 attack. Maybe, there is a balancing reason behind, because he have +150 bolt skill. That I can buy.

But, If an ogre, level 4, have +88 attack and 156 hits, a greater hill giant, level 8, cant have +50 attack and 104 hits. A basic Class I undead have better attack.

[jdale]

A greater giant storm, level 30, have +83 attack. Maybe, there is a balancing reason behind, because he have +150 bolt skill. That I can buy.

But, If an ogre, level 4, have +88 attack and 156 hits, a greater hill giant, level 8, cant have +50 attack and 104 hits. A basic Class I undead have better attack.

OBs are primarily a function of level and archetype. Greater storm giants have a spell user archetype; their power is in spells and not physical might. They have twelve spell lists to level 30. Directed spells is certainly part of that but they have a lot more to work with. They typically also have ogres, sea trolls, and elementals to provide melee support.

Greater hill giants have a skill archetype. That's basically equivalent to the Laborer or Scholar professions. Combat is not an emphasis for them.

Ogres and many undead have the offensive archetype. So they are basically fighters. Combat is an emphasis for them.

[wibobm]

Fell Beasts have light-boned talent.  Their HP should be 621 vs. 828 as a result.

[wibobm]

Fell Beasts have light-boned talent.  Their HP should be 621 vs. 828 as a result.

I think several (if not all) creatures with this talent are impacted.

[Amano]

Creature Law (Modified Version: August 18, 2025 5:48PM)

1.   True Elementals: Questions

p.34      
Does elemental volatility only effect the target of the ram attack or does it produce an actual ball effect? If so, what is the area of effect? What is the size of the ball attack for each element?

p.142      
The boxed text includes instructions on which attack and critical tables should be used for the bolt, cone and ball attacks of each element. However, the descriptions of aura, elemental explosion (e.g. tiny lightning ball) and elemental volatility (e.g. cold ball with krush criticals for air elementals), as well as the Guardian elemental's attack sequence ball attacks (all size S), contradict these instructions. As these are the only innate abilities producing bolt, cone or ball attacks that true elementals possess, I question if this contradictory section should exist at all?

I am curious what the intent was though. Was it that all innate elemental bolts, cones and balls were of a standard size, like we have for spell effects?

p.143
"controlled and mastered elementals will remain for as long as they are bound." This seems incompatible with elemental incohesion. How should this conflict be resolved?

p.158-159   
According to the combat stat block table, many elementals receive attacks at a size different to their own. Do they have hidden talents effecting these changes?

p.159      
All Guardian elementals have attack sequence leading to a ball attack but neither of these talents appear in their talent lists. Do they have these as hidden talents?

[Amano]

2.    True Elementals: Suggestions for revision.

p.34       
Elemental Volatility: please define area of effect and size of attack for each element.

p.47       
Life sense states a range of 5' per tier. It should be 5'/lvl per tier.

p.142       
"If we go against the direction of the arrow, we find which element it is boon to." Attacks in this direction are still damaging. How is it a boon? This sentence should be removed.

p.142       
Appropriate attack and critical table information (box). The intended purpose of this information should be clarified or it should be removed.

p.143       
"for a discussion on how elements look and behave: see spell law section 10.6". This sentence would be better placed at the end of the text in the box on p.142.

p.143       
"or they shoot bolts of their element, with a range of <1'>/lvl." As none of the true elementals have this ability, this reference should be removed.

p.143       
"lashing out" should be changed to grappling. (correcting this sentence duplicates information given in the previous paragraph).

p.143       
"bash attack" should be changed to ram attack. (correcting this sentence duplicates information given in the previous paragraph).

p.144-150   
All petty elementals are 18" or 30". This seems a bit short and diverges significantly from the 4' suggested for grade II on p.143. Whereas the weak and strong elementals are 6' and 20', as suggested for grade III and VI.

p.144-150   
Elemental internals in the talent lists is given in the format e.g. Elemental internals I [Earth, Attack, A]. I am not sure what "Attack" signifies. [Earth, Impact, A] or simply [Impact, A] would be more informative.

p.145       
The weak and strong fire elementals have their stat bonuses and talent lists swapped with each other.

p.150       
The first paragraph, detailing which elementals feature in which book, would be better placed in the introduction.

p.150-153   
Elemental guardians are listed as having an SCR of 69. Unless they have hidden talents giving them +37, I think their SCR should be 32 (17+10+5).

p.150-153   
The additional critical talent is in a different and more confusing format in the guardian talent lists e.g. [grapple, earth, E] rather than the more straightforward [impact, E].

p.151       
Elemental Guardian, Ice is missing bold text from elemental blending and aura, elemental explosion.

p.158-159   
All elementals appear to have the vigorous talent, however, they also all have unsleeping, which makes them immune to fatigue. I don't think endurance is used for anything other than fatigue checks. Vigorous should be removed.

p.158-159   
The skills listed for elementals do not adequately reflect their archetypes e.g. stealth archetypes have no stalk skill, all elementals of the same grade have the same number of ranks in ambush, etc.

p.159       
Guardian, earth elemental is listed with AT 1, should be AT 7.

p.159       
All Guardian elementals are listed with DB 40, barring hidden talents it should be DB 0.

p.159       
Rooted is in bold.

p.159       
Dir. Bolts is not in bold.

p.159       
Elemental servants have outlook berserk, however, p.150 "Elemental servants are especially vulnerable to being controlled and will follow their summoner around, staying within 5' per master's level" suggests that a passive outlook might be more appropriate.

p.159       
The table should list separate movement type, bmr and max pace for each of the non-flying elemental servants.

p.159       
The table should list separate AT, DB and movement skill for the non-flying elemental servants.

p.159       
Elemental servants have 47 DB. This is not justified by talents listed and should be 16 for flying elemental servants and 6 for non-flying.

p.159       
The size at which elemental servants and elemental guardians receive attacks should deviate with element type like it does for the other elementals.

I appreciate that these changes to the elemental servant entry in the table may require more space but as they are the only type 1 elemental available to low level summoners until creature law II, I feel it is important that they get a thorough treatment. Separate table entries for each type of elemental servant would be ideal.

[Amano]

3.    True Elementals: Issues that would require significant changes to resolve.


Movement.

In beta, Elementals were terrifying. Low level casters rarely risked summoning one lest something go wrong and they had to face it themselves. Now, with the restriction to walk pace (x1) for magical flight and the removal of proof weapon II (except magic) and their innate bolt attacks, many elementals could be kited to death by a small child throwing rocks.

The chief culprit here is clearly the pace restriction of magical flight. The obvious solution, to me at least, is to allow tiered progression of pace for magical flight, like we have for all the other movement talents. While this may require further revision elsewhere, preventing fly true from allowing a "creep" pace of over 100'/rnd would also be an improvement in my opinion.

Elementals should also get faster as they get stronger, increasing the tier of their movement skill in relation to their grade, at least to the point where they cannot be safely kited to death in their preferred environment.


Proof, weapon II (except magic)

In my opinion, either all true elementals should have proof, weapon II (except magic) or none of them should.

I would prefer that they all have it but if standard grade II, III and VI elementals do not then elemental servants "the least powerful of the elementals" certainly should not have it either and it should be removed.


Elemental internals

Most standard elementals do not get this talent until grade III. The unfortunate water elemental not until grade IV and Guardian elementals do not have it despite being grade IV (I assume all true elementals do have elemental internals, they just aren't powerful enough to cause harm on contact until they acquire the talent). It is therefore a little strange that the grade I elemental servant has it and it should be removed. This would leave the elemental servant with no additional elemental critical for its ram attack, so it should be replaced with the additional critical talent or, preferably, the ram attack itself could do elemental rather than impact criticals. Is there a talent for that?

Alternatively, the elemental internals talent could be given to all true elementals and the additional critical talents could be removed (preventing elementals from adding two, often identical, additional criticals to each attack) and replaced with proof, weapon II (except magic). All elementals having the elemental internals talent would also fit better with their description on p.143 "Each inflicts more terrible criticals than the previous kind on touch and their attacks are accompanied by possibly higher severity criticals. They attack by lashing out with elemental limbs, or a bash attack, with additional elemental type criticals, or they could overrun their target, simply stand on the downed victim, doing touch damage."

[Amano]

4.    True Elementals: Other oddities and potential missteps (that I am largely ambivalent about)

Standard fire elementals are denied the unbreathing talent, which all other elementals have (including fire guardians and fire servants). I assume this is because fire needs oxygen and some oxygen depleting spells reduce the effectiveness of elemental fire attacks. I think this is better explained by the lack of oxygen affecting the fire caused by the elemental fire, rather than the elemental fire itself. Not all fire requires oxygen. Elemental fire should be considered something more akin to nuclear fusion and standard fire elementals should get the unbreathing talent.

All of the strong (VI) elementals have some kind of weakness or reduced potency. Some of these weaknesses seem kind of arbitrary e.g. all strong earth and ice elementals have developed a weak spot? While other seem a little unfair e.g. strong water elementals get additional critical -2 tiers, elemental internals -1 tier, elemental vulnerability +1 tier (as compared to other strong elementals).

Many elementals have footwork skill far in excess of what they might need given their current maximum pace.


p.s. Despite the criticisms outlined in the above posts I do appreciate that elementals needed to be toned down from beta and I actually really like the petty and weak earth elementals and look forward to using them.

p.p.s. I have not looked at any of the elemental creatures.

[jdale]

Creature Law (Modified Version: August 18, 2025 5:48PM)

1.    True Elementals: Questions

p.34       
Does elemental volatility only effect the target of the ram attack or does it produce an actual ball effect? If so, what is the area of effect? What is the size of the ball attack for each element?

The only creature with this talent is the Elemental Servant, which is class I. The other elements have significant elemental attacks without blowing themselves up, but servants are so weak that it ends them. I would treat it as only affecting the target, not having a radius. It's "resolved as" a ball attack, but there are other attacks resolved that way without exploding (e.g., various cold ball attacks from draining life energy).

p.142       
The boxed text includes instructions on which attack and critical tables should be used for the bolt, cone and ball attacks of each element. However, the descriptions of aura, elemental explosion (e.g. tiny lightning ball) and elemental volatility (e.g. cold ball with krush criticals for air elementals), as well as the Guardian elemental's attack sequence ball attacks (all size S), contradict these instructions. As these are the only innate abilities producing bolt, cone or ball attacks that true elementals possess, I question if this contradictory section should exist at all?

I am curious what the intent was though. Was it that all innate elemental bolts, cones and balls were of a standard size, like we have for spell effects?

Bolts and balls are, by design, not equal. In the spells, that's important in order to create a progression of more powerful spells at higher levels. For elemental creatures, that's not ideal because elements are not intended to be more or less powerful than each other.

p.143
"controlled and mastered elementals will remain for as long as they are bound." This seems incompatible with elemental incohesion. How should this conflict be resolved?

If there's a spell that specifies a duration (e.g., a spell that controls or masters elementals), then that spell takes precedence. Assume the spell is providing any necessary power to make its effect possible. Just as with any spell doing a thing that does not happen naturally. That's what magic is for.

p.158-159   
According to the combat stat block table, many elementals receive attacks at a size different to their own. Do they have hidden talents effecting these changes?

They all appear to match, except the ball attacks which are their own thing? Not sure what you are seeing here.

p.159       
All Guardian elementals have attack sequence leading to a ball attack but neither of these talents appear in their talent lists. Do they have these as hidden talents?

After a successful grapple, in the following round you suffer the effect of their aura of elemental explosion.

[Amano]

The only creature with this talent is the Elemental Servant, which is class I. The other elements have significant elemental attacks without blowing themselves up, but servants are so weak that it ends them. I would treat it as only affecting the target, not having a radius. It's "resolved as" a ball attack, but there are other attacks resolved that way without exploding (e.g., various cold ball attacks from draining life energy)

They really aren't that weak. They have a decent ram attack with an additional critical from elemental internals I. Proof weapon II (except magic) really helps them out too.

Is the ball attack small (rheir size) or does it vary with element? If so how?

They all appear to match, except the ball attacks which are their own thing? Not sure what you are seeing here.

I am referring to the Roman numerals in the size/crit column of the table, which denote the creatures effective size when receiving attacks.

Further to my above posts, I have changed my mind about proof weapon II (except magic). At best they should have proof weapon I (except magic and elements) otherwise they can't cause criticals to each other and elemental vulnerability only works with magical elemental attacks. It would probably be best to remove proof weapon entirely for all of them.

[jdale]

2.    True Elementals: Suggestions for revision.

p.34       
Elemental Volatility: please define area of effect and size of attack for each element.

Area of effect is just the target (who got rammed). The size is the size of the elemental (which, since this only applies to elemental servant, is small).

p.47       
Life sense states a range of 5' per tier. It should be 5'/lvl per tier.

I'll have to check the intent there. I do see the stat blocks indicate the latter.

p.142       
"If we go against the direction of the arrow, we find which element it is boon to." Attacks in this direction are still damaging. How is it a boon? This sentence should be removed.

I think you're over-reading. I like bread, it's overall beneficial for me, but if you hit me with a baguette it still hurts. More so if you launch it out of a cannon like a bread bolt.

p.143       
"or they shoot bolts of their element, with a range of <1'>/lvl." As none of the true elementals have this ability, this reference should be removed.

Previously noted.

p.144-150   
All petty elementals are 18" or 30". This seems a bit short and diverges significantly from the 4' suggested for grade II on p.143. Whereas the weak and strong elementals are 6' and 20', as suggested for grade III and VI.

And Grade I = elemental servant which is 1"-1'. So those could be corrected.

p.144-150   
Elemental internals in the talent lists is given in the format e.g. Elemental internals I [Earth, Attack, A]. I am not sure what "Attack" signifies. [Earth, Impact, A] or simply [Impact, A] would be more informative.

It just means it applies to any of their attacks. In principle such a talent might only apply to one.

p.145       
The weak and strong fire elementals have their stat bonuses and talent lists swapped with each other.

Previously noted.

p.150       
The first paragraph, detailing which elementals feature in which book, would be better placed in the introduction.

Post-layout restructuring generally isn't going to happen. There would need to be an overwhelming reason why the current layout actively impedes play. If it's not crossing that bar, it's not worth creating the kinds of secondary errors that such changes risk.

p.150-153   
Elemental guardians are listed as having an SCR of 69. Unless they have hidden talents giving them +37, I think their SCR should be 32 (17+10+5).

You're probably correct.

p.158-159   
The skills listed for elementals do not adequately reflect their archetypes e.g. stealth archetypes have no stalk skill, all elementals of the same grade have the same number of ranks in ambush, etc.

Archetypes mainly affect the stat bonuses here. Any given skill gets ranks assigned based on whether it is designated as primary, secondary, or other (aside from OB skills), that doesn't come automatically out of the archetype. There's an argument the stealth ones should have stalking added though.

p.159       
Guardian, earth elemental is listed with AT 1, should be AT 7.

And Ice should be AT 4 now that you mention it.

p.159       
All Guardian elementals are listed with DB 40, barring hidden talents it should be DB 0.

I have to check on the intent there.

p.159       
The table should list separate AT, DB and movement skill for the non-flying elemental servants.

There isn't room in the table for 5 more rows. At best, any given stat would be replaced by "varies".

p.159       
The size at which elemental servants and elemental guardians receive attacks should deviate with element type like it does for the other elementals.

Or conversely, the other elementals should not deviate. Not sure about that.

[Amano]

p.159     
All Guardian elementals have attack sequence leading to a ball attack but neither of these talents appear in their talent lists. Do they have these as hidden talents?

After a successful grapple, in the following round you suffer the effect of their aura of elemental explosion.

Sorry, but this still doesn't seem right to me.

Any combatant in melee range is necessarily within the 17'R aura and will therefore be subject to the aura's ball attacks. We don't need an attack sequence ball attack to remind us that a grappled opponent will be subject to the aura's ball attacks. Further, the attack sequence ball attacks are all size small, whereas the aura, elemental explosion ball attacks include size tiny and medium.

I don't think elemental guardians need an attack sequence ball attack, and they don't appear to have the talents for it, so it should be removed.

[Amano]

P.53 Birds of Prey: Eagle

Talent list has Enhanced Attack I (claw, grapple) for only 10 DP (I think it should only apply to one attack at that price), neither of which are reflected in the combat stat block table (Eagle is size 3, claw and grapple attacks listed as size 3).

[wibobm]

Mindless talent has a cap on stat bonus of -4 for Em, In, Pr, Me and Re. Many creatures w/ Mindless have stat bonuses exceeding the limit. Did they buy Stat Bonus increases, was it from yet to be defined Archetype increases on stat bonuses or was that cap on those stats intended to be removed? 

Likely needs clarification.

[Hurin]

Not sure if this has been asked before, but Garks seem to have erroneously strong resistances.

They don't seem to have any talents that help with RRs, and are only level 1 creatures, yet their RR bonuses are: 17, 17, 19, 18, and 2.

Is that right?

[TigerShaman]

Of course that kind of sucks for those of us that are really trying to support the company and bought hardbacks early.  It would have been nice to have a bit more attention paid to the proofreading and editing up front.