Topic: Attacking with a chariot

[Nders]

This is a question about attacking with a chariot not from a chariot.

The question is simple: how would you do it?
What OB (skill) would you use?
What attack table would you use?
What number of foes would you allow to be attacked with a chariot?
What would you deem the effect of using scythes to be? (apart from the +25 ob mentioned in character law)

[RandalThor]

I would use the ride skill as the governing attack bonus.

As for crit chart, what does the chariot have sticking out from it, anything? If nothing then I would go with a large, or even huge, crush crit. If it has spears, you could say an even result is piercing and odd crushing; blades could be slashing/crush. Something like that.

[markc]

What system are you using?
MDC

[Nders]

Rm2/RMC but I think the question is valid no matter what system you use - even if the specific way of handling ob and attacks are slightly different.

Besides from the question asked above I would like suggestions on how to handle passing by a group of creatures with scythes as well as how to handle ramming the chariot straight into someone or something.

[kevinmccollum]

Don't you mean ramming the horses into someone or something? I don't think you can really use a chariot as a weapon. The "engine" probably wouldnt like it/allow it.

[Nders]

Stop beating about the bush and tell me how you would do it! I don not really care if you run the horses over or along them first Please no arguing whether the question is worded perfectly so as not to allow any misunderstandings and answer the question, if you have any suggestions.

[Cormac Doyle]

It is nigh-on impossible to get a chariot to run over someone ... the horses will shy.

However, traditionally, sythes were attacked to the wheels of the shariot. The chariot(s) would charge infantry. If the Infantry unit "broke", they would be chased down and the sythes would attack anyone who stood in the wrong place. ... they wer primarilly a psychological weapon

Fighting from the back of a chariot requires "mounted combat"; and was typically archery or thrown spears.

Remember - there are not tanks ... their main purose was fast deployment, harrying attacks on the flanks, and mopping up infantry divisions that have broken and scattered ...

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Fighting from the back of a chariot requires "mounted combat"; and was typically archery or thrown spears.

Just want to add -- In most of the History Channel shows, which talk about chariots, that I have seen, the chariot is a 2 man vehicle, 1 driver, and 1 man who makes the attacks (i.e. spearman/archer).

[munchy]

RMC3 has some rules on the modification of the OB due to acceleration. It concentrates on horseback charges but I guess chariot work quite similar.

Second that info by Tim on the two men vehicle. One driver and one "fighter", spear thrower or archer.

[frnchqrtr]

Fighting from the back of a chariot requires "mounted combat"; and was typically archery or thrown spears.

Just want to add -- In most of the History Channel shows, which talk about chariots, that I have seen, the chariot is a 2 man vehicle, 1 driver, and 1 man who makes the attacks (i.e. spearman/archer).

That's close enough.  There were also runners that followed the chariots into battle.   They acted pretty much the same as infantry support did for tanks in WWII.

Using a chariot against a unit of troops is fruitless, as Alexander proved against the Persians.  Using a chariot as a weapon against a single foe, or a small group of foes is even more fruitless.  Even the light, two-wheeled chariot used by the Egyptians wouldn't be maneuverable enough to run down targets that weren't unconscious or tied up.  

For the sake of answering the question, however, let's assume someone is desperate enough to attempt this tactic.  This will only apply to a single target or adventuring party sized groups (2 - 10ish).

First, if the target of the attack has any chance at all of avoiding being hit, then they're automatically out of harm's way.  Yes, it really would be that easy to avoid being trampled or scythed.  If you insist that the target must make a roll to avoid the attack,  then roll some form of dodge, and they only fail on some catastrophically low open-ended roll.

If  say the chariot is racing down some tunnel or corridor where the target has absolutely no chance of merely stepping out of the way, then use the chariot driver's Driving skill as OB.  That would apply to the horses' trampling attack, and you could also use that OB on the broadsword table if the chariot sports scythed wheels.  You may could even allow the type of critical to determine what actually struck the target.  Slashing or piercing crits would indicate the blades, while krush would indicate the horses.  Of course, if the wheels aren't rigged,then possibly slashing and puncturing crits could be ignored.

A chariot attempting to run down a conscious foe should be a desperate move, and susceptible to a high failure rate.  Unless, of course, your game is *highly* cinematic, in which case .. Run 'em down!

[Nders]

you're not telling much that I did not already know and besides from this here last post, which really does not give me all that much usefull, you're not answering the questions... merely elaborating on historical intell that I am privy to already.

[markc]

 I asked because there is a difference how I would do it between RMC and RMSS. In RMSS I would limit the OB by the driving and Mounted Combat-Chariot skills, of which the Mounted Combat-Chariot is a new or modified skill.
 I would also have the driver make a moving maneuver [MM] to see how close they got to the target for the target to make an opposed MM to see if they got hit. I would probably base it on [2xQu+Ag]/3 for the bonus. Or you could move the numbers around to [QU+2xAg]/3. If the target failed the MM then they would take damage.
 For the damage I would base it off the amount of failure of the MM. With a bad failure giving a large OB or simply upping the damage level. So lets lay they failed bad and I decide it is a large crit. So I look on the chart and see large starts at 100 [I am making this up] so I roll d100+100.

 For RMC I would try and fit it in the above ruling.

 As for ramming, it would depend if the horses thought they could jump over the object or not. If they can jump the object then the chariot will ram something but the horses will not run into something then have the cart hit them in the back. Maybe if they are mind controlled that could happen but IMO again the horse's will try and preserve themselves.
 If you are trying to hit a specific place then again I would do a MM to see how close they came.

Does that help?

Sorry I took so long I got caught up in other things and forgot about this question.
MDC     

[frnchqrtr]

you're not answering the questions...

I did.  I said I'd use the driver's skill as the OB and that I'd use the broadsword table for rigged chariots.  I thought it obvious the horses would use the Trample table, but suppose I could have spelled that out explicitly.  In general, I'd say I answered most of your questions.  You may disagree with my answer, of course.

[Marc R]

Horse charge I'd use a large ram/butt/bash, with their OB, perhaps modified by the driver, definitely with charge attack mods.

Hit by the body or wheel, same, incidental attack (+/-0 OB) but with charging bonus could be quite a bonus. . .(if you charge up 150' on final approach round it's +150 OB)

Run over by the horses (likely result of the ram attack) large trample/stomp, incidental attack, massive DB penalties to a downed foe, and still charge bonuses would apply IMO. Double attack for a 4 horse chariot (run over by one, then the other).

Run over by the wheels, incidental attack again. Large Fall/Crush (perhaps huge for the larger carts) being run over by a wagon/cart/chariot wheel is far worse than a wider soft tire, and that's bad enough.

Scythes, even small ones, would be nasty. . .non spinners (blades on the body anywhere) I'd use a scimitar attack, perhaps falchion for a heavier blade. For spinners, even short 6" hub blades, I'd use Broadsword due to the solidity of momentum behind them. For the big ones on large chariots I'd use the 2HD sword table.

All of this assumes someone can't bail out of the way for whatever reason, but getting hit/run down would massively suck.

The purpose of the hub blades was a specific terror, the fear of dodging but staying in melee range to attack the driver/archers. . .to avoid hub blades you jumped back twice, so in avoiding attack you make it neigh impossible to strike back. Vs PCs, in my experience, they can be nasty, since PCs often insist on attacking back, even if doing so gets you dead. . .the need to be able to dodge but also strike at range made the 2 weapons that killed off chariots the thrown spear and axe. . .usually used on the horses, but sometimes the occupants. . . .though a block of pikes like a greek phalanx would be a poor target too, since again the horses would bite it. . .you could hassle them with drive by attacks until someone did a sprint up and horse stab or threw something.

[Nders]

Thanks a bunch
frnchqrtr: you're that one last post that did answer the question so I agree you did answer.

Marck: agreed some adoption will be needed.

LordM: thanks for the elaborate answer.

[Ravenheart]

Interesting thread. I never needed the chariot rules but makes me think anyway.

I guess light-weighted chariots, maybe with only driver and one horse, could be maneuverable enough to chase effectively some unfortunate footmen down. I definitely would require some kind of maneuver roll for dodging footmen, at least for those with heavier armors or ENC. Anyone see AT 20 knight dodging all-day a couple of chariots? I'd probably use some kind of Drive Chariot skill & maneuver conflict to see if footman get's far enough of either the trample or wheel-blades. I'm certain that charioteers skill plays part in this situation.
I also think that a trained war-horse would not necessary shy away from a footmen, resulting in very serious trampling attack from hooves and wheels. I'd use horses trample attack +50 maybe.
Two-horse heavy chariots would have room for principal fighter, with a bow or several throwing spears handy available. Munchkin players would love an arbalest, of course. I would think that shooting a bow or throwing a spear would be a MUCH easier from the chariot than from a saddle.

I guess that chariots were made obsolete by invention of saddle stirrups and subsequent invention of heavy cavalry. I think that staying at the saddle and fighting was a some feat before stirrups.

I guess what counts most in a very expensive chariot warfare, is maneuverability, psychological effect (War Law morale -10?) and some cover for a fighter. I'd give him Half-hard cover anytime but against straight from behind.

[Marc R]

Chariots were essentially made obsolete with iron. . .a common misconception (including in RM) is that iron is better than bronze, but well made bronze is roughly as good, quality wise, as low end steels. . .what iron does better is that it's both cheap and easier to reforge/repair, especially it's ability to be smelted and forged in the field, which allowed villages and nomads to arm themselves instead of buying weapons from city based imperial cultures. . .the dark age as the bronze age empires fell and the iron age started saw soldiering go from being an elite occupation to hordes of armed men tearing everything down.

In an era of elite warriors, enhancing the quality of military units centered around one elite warrior who rode the chariot with an attendant squad of support folks worked, the force multiplication made them unstoppable vs small units of similarly elite enemies afoot, or as shock troops in battles where the vast majority of the foot only possessed enough bronze to tip a spear, if that. . . when faced with an enemy who'd arm every adult male in a minimal iron kit, they either got dog piled under, or faced a situation where the chariots were too valuable to risk in combat. Bronze armored horses would get barraged with iron headed throwing axes until one hit something vital. When one fell the chariot was stopped if not crashed, then they'd storm the cart and kill the occupants. The age of chariots was crushed with infantry, not cavalry.

The military use of the shovel was also a problem. . .if your plebeian enemies did the absolute minimum to dig in, like a shallow, narrow ditch in front of their line, they made a chariot charge suicide. . . the same with making minimal efforts to make use of terrain. . .perhaps not much of an issue in a flood plain, but if there were any trees or rocks to  march along, your enemy could just pull just behind them and mock the charioteers from safety.

[Grinnen Baeritt]

Historically the primary reason for the evolution of the chariot was simply the lack of suitabily sized horses for riding. As breeding increased the size of the horses there was a greater use of cavalry. Cavalry is more adaptable therein lies the phasing out of the chariot.

That having being said, the modern preconception (via the movies, fanatsy art and figure manufacturers) is that the horses used were great hulking beasts, and it is possible that in a fantasy game that if trained "war" horses were used, could, in theory, be used to charge down and trample irregular troops.

In RMSS/FP I'd use the Drive skill of the charioteer as a limiting factor to deliberately "attack" with any element of the chariot (be it the draft animals or sythes or simply running something over). The Drive skill is however simply used as a mechanism to force the occupants of a "target area" to jump clear, failure resulting in damage. This is more realistic than using a chariot a attack a specific individual.

The actual "OB" would be derived (and modified) by the element/s used to force the targets evasion, limited by the Drive skill of the driver. With the pace and size of the chariot equating to the distance fallen on a roll on the Fall/Crush table.

[markc]

  I have no real experience but IMHO attacking from a horse would be better (easier) than from a chariot. From what I have seen on the History channel the chariot is good over open ground but suffers in rougher terrain and the simple experiments they performed on the show I saw clearly proved the superiority of the horse and stirrup.
  Also Queen Budica (sp?) of Britian (or the area around there as I am a dumb American) did lots of damage to the Roman Legions using chariots. She used them in the correct way for the time, type of warfare, the terrain, the enemy and the troops she had. When she fought the Romans battle she perished, IIRC.
   
 So in a fantasy game I can still see a use for them in some specific cases.


MDC

[Marc R]

Handy for keeping your mages moving and behind cover to make them harder to target. . .