Author Topic: So..  (Read 28635 times)

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Offline Hurin

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Re: So..
« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2018, 02:04:55 PM »
When you state something that is not true, the best course of action is to admit it.

It is not true that 'most responders used the RMSS round'.

It is however true that the RMSS round was the most used of the RM rounds. It is also true that a significant number of posters -- including those who used the RMSS round -- expressed dissatisfaction with their choices.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: So..
« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2018, 03:15:18 PM »
Did you not understand the point?

'The' most people.  I think we can save the rules lawyering for the table.
- Cory Magel

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Offline Hurin

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Re: So..
« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2018, 05:39:54 PM »
You made the claim twice. Neither time did you put a 'the' before 'most responders', so I have no idea why you are putting 'the' in quotes now. Everyone can go check for themselves.

Is it really so hard to admit that you made an inaccurate claim? I and other posters do it all the time, rather than doubling down on something that everyone can see is not accurate.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: So..
« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2018, 09:52:53 PM »
I think that's the thing.  Just about everything in every version of RM has been houseruled at some point, probably (I know that's a huge sweeping statement to make, sorry).  At the very least, we all use different optional rules from the various companions in both RM2/C & RMSS/FRP.

As for commercial viability, I think RM has become a niche, perhaps even just a nostalgic game.  Yes, it would be great if a new crop of players picked up RM & injected some new life into the product (& ICE's coffers); but when you look at the ages of the users on this forum, they're mostly around the same age - basically all of us who have been playing RM in its various incarnations since high school.  In the end, most of us will continue to use whatever homebrew ruleset we use - perhaps adopting some new mechanics/rules/options from RMU.  But I get the feeling this is where the RM community is sort of headed - IMHO.

I think if ICE wants to inject new life into the RM line (no matter what flavour (C/FRP/U)) they should try to go back to what made them successful in their heyday: amazing adventure modules.  I know there's no chance of getting the MERP license back; but there's Shadow World; SM Imperium; SM:Privateers & a number of other fan-created worlds.  If ICE found a way to support these settings and market modules & adventures set there, I believe they could possibly find some commercial viability.  But that takes dedicated authors & a team of editorial staff to keep things "Canon".  I understand there's issues with such an idea, but there are only so many people out there who will get into a RPG with a generic ruleset that says: Build your own world to play in.  Most people want that hard work done for them.  We're just the crazy bunch that loves to build worlds.  But you can't survive commercially on people like us.

Nightblade ->--

Don't forget, too, that video gamers raised on sandbox games expect to have a world ready for them, and may not actually know how (yet) to design one on their own. I'm working on settings for each of the modern genre RMU variants I'm designing (three in progress now, with ideas for more), because you HAVE to provide that stuff now.

And actually once you left MERP and the SM stuff ICE's module output was pretty poor. I hope they start supporting licensed products or something similar, because RMU in any flavor won't likely survive without a solid setting and a wide range of modules or other support products. To me the key is to make it as accessible as possible with good support stuff from the beginning. Old school D&D was damned good about that, as were most of TSR's other early games (Top Secret, Boot Hill, Gamma World, Gangbusters, and so on). They all came with a setting or at least a very detailed first module right in the box.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: So..
« Reply #44 on: November 11, 2018, 11:30:49 PM »
I have no idea why you are putting 'the' in quotes now
You really didn't understand the original point? Really?
I find that... really hard to believe.
- Cory Magel

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Offline Hurin

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Re: So..
« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2018, 01:29:38 PM »
I have no idea why you are putting 'the' in quotes now
You really didn't understand the original point? Really?
I find that... really hard to believe.

The point is you made a claim that was demonstrably false. When that was demonstrated, you doubled down, refused to admit the obvious, and tried disingenuously to move the goalposts. It's a shame that you can't just admit your original claim was misleading, and correct it to something like, 'The RMSS round got considerably more votes than the RM2/RMC round.'

There is no shame in making a mistake. There is shame however in not showing your fellow posters the basic courtesy of admitting it when you do, so we don't have to waste our time pointing out the obvious.

We'll just move on without that admission though.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Hurin

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Re: So..
« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2018, 01:31:28 PM »
I think that IntoThatDarkness makes a good point that the module support for RMU is not going to be especially robust. This is why I feel that RMU should ensure that it is as backwards-compatible as possible, so that people don't have to do too much work to use the old Middle Earth and Shadow World modules.

Yes, I'm looking in your direction, passive skill rank bonuses!
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: So..
« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2018, 01:36:59 PM »
So, you didn't understand the original point?
You're not intentionally being an ass, you just really are that daft?
- Cory Magel

Game design priority: Fun > Balance > Realism (greater than > less than).
(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

"The only thing I know about adults is that they are obsolete children." - Dr Seuss

Offline Hurin

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Re: So..
« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2018, 02:29:23 PM »
So, you didn't understand the original point?
You're not intentionally being an ass, you just really are that daft?

I was waiting for you to say, 'Yes, my apologies, I did overstate my case originally. What I should say instead is that the RMSS round was more popular than the RM2/RMC round.'

You've never said anything like that. In fact, you seemed to suggest that the only difference between what you originally said and what you are saying now is 'semantics'. Again, that is not true: in no sense -- semantic, literal, figurative, or metaphorical -- is it true to say that most posters played the RMSS round.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: So..
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2018, 04:39:25 PM »
So, let's recap, shall we?
 
I mentioned that a poll was conducted long ago in which the RMSS around seemed to be the fairly obvious round RMU should model from.  That RMSS came out the clear lead, slightly behind everyone own custom round, and then far behind was RM2 and RMC.

Your incorrect 'recollection' was that this was not the case.

Someone dug up the post and we find I was spot on.

From there you degenerate into arguments akin to a petulant teenager arguing a mostly irrelevant turn of phrase because...? I don't know why. You just want to pick a fight?

I asked if you didn't understand the original point as a result.  Because if someone were to use that poll to help try and determine what RM style round to model RMU from (and what other reason would the current (at the time) lead RMU designer take such a poll?) you obviously can't create a round custom to each user, RM2 and RMC were obviously not popular... which leaves what? RMSS round. Not a conclusion that requires a PHD.

How do you respond? Like the petulant teenager again.

So, I don't really know what your problem is, aside from maybe behaving exactly in the way you're trying to say I am, but you need to get the hell over it Hurin.

If you really didn't understand I'll to try and explain things at a more basic level for you in the future.

If you did understand then I can only assume your goal is to be an ass.

- Cory Magel

Game design priority: Fun > Balance > Realism (greater than > less than).
(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

"The only thing I know about adults is that they are obsolete children." - Dr Seuss

Offline Merkir

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Re: So..
« Reply #50 on: November 12, 2018, 04:43:31 PM »

'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, as he had an axe to grind'

Couldn't help myself.  ;)

Seriously guys, we're all on the same side here, chatting and helping improve RM. What was perhaps a little mistake or semantics issue has blown way out of proportion. Please let's shake hands and move on?

Offline Hurin

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Re: So..
« Reply #51 on: November 12, 2018, 05:45:37 PM »
I have no personal animus towards Cory, and would like very much to move forward. But his statement that 'the poll indicates MOST responders used the RMSS round' is simply incorrect, as the poll shows. For reasons I can't fathom he won't acknowledge that, and his 'recap' above adds further inaccuracies. I even suggested ways he could rephrase his claim to make it true, and tried to be nice by noting that the RMSS round was the most popular of the 'out of the box' rounds in RM. In return I've gotten insults -- 'petulant teenager' and 'ass' in particular -- which are ad hominems that I do not engage in.

If he can admit that it is incorrect to say 'the poll indicates that most responders used the RMSS round', I will happily admit that the RMSS round got the most votes (albeit not a majority). Then we can both admit that 2 + 2 = 4, and go our merry ways.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: So..
« Reply #52 on: November 12, 2018, 05:58:21 PM »
I think that IntoThatDarkness makes a good point that the module support for RMU is not going to be especially robust. This is why I feel that RMU should ensure that it is as backwards-compatible as possible, so that people don't have to do too much work to use the old Middle Earth and Shadow World modules.

Yes, I'm looking in your direction, passive skill rank bonuses!

This has always been essential, especially for the MERP stuff. SW has a core of devoted followers, but it simply isn't as accessible to newcomers as Middle Earth (sorry, but it's true). Unless ICE is able to create starting-level modules, or support the efforts of freelancers to do said work, you'll end up with a set of rules grounded in nothing, and that is going to be a hard sell I fear.

The "plug in" nature of RM early on was certainly a strength for a certain type of gamer, but it's also been a longstanding weakness for another type (the type that might be more common). Maybe in some ways it's better to think back to the early days when TSR had to explain what this bloody thing was (D&D) and how you use it (Greyhawk and other campaign settings like the small one done for the Basic D&D stuff).
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: So..
« Reply #53 on: November 12, 2018, 06:41:42 PM »
What was perhaps a little mistake or semantics issue has blown way out of proportion. Please let's shake hands and move on?
Oh it was blown way out of proportion. To take 'the most used round' and 'most used the round' is what Hurin is harping on and I'm pretty darned sure he understood exactly what was meant. He's not that slow. Seeing as he refused to admit he did understand that and kept at it shows he was the one who didn't want to move forward. I think we are done there.
- Cory Magel

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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: So..
« Reply #54 on: November 12, 2018, 06:46:28 PM »
Unless ICE is able to create starting-level modules, or support the efforts of freelancers to do said work, you'll end up with a set of rules grounded in nothing, and that is going to be a hard sell I fear.

The "plug in" nature of RM early on was certainly a strength for a certain type of gamer, but it's also been a longstanding weakness for another type (the type that might be more common). Maybe in some ways it's better to think back to the early days when TSR had to explain what this bloody thing was (D&D) and how you use it (Greyhawk and other campaign settings like the small one done for the Basic D&D stuff).
This is one of the interesting developments in the RPG industry.  At first, I'd say when the industry was new, modules were good for business. As time went on that became less true. I'd argue that setting materials would still have done well, providing the more experienced customer base things to work from. But maybe it was just that not a lot of quality material was being put out?

I think you really need a setting for an RPG, even if it's an extremely generic one. I also think it's a good idea to put basic adventure material in that.  But I wonder if these days straight up modules are a good idea again?
- Cory Magel

Game design priority: Fun > Balance > Realism (greater than > less than).
(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

"The only thing I know about adults is that they are obsolete children." - Dr Seuss

Offline Hurin

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Re: So..
« Reply #55 on: November 12, 2018, 07:34:56 PM »
One interesting effect that the 'plug in' nature of the original RM might have had is that it fosters a community of users who are not afraid to modify and adapt rules to their own liking. RM GMs are often kind of like videogame modders in that respect.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: So..
« Reply #56 on: November 12, 2018, 07:56:17 PM »
That's why I think setting materials, that can be dropped into almost any setting, with plot hook ideas (and not spelled out modules), would be where ICE should head as a baseline, with Shadow World being the possible exception to that thought.

I suspect that the supply of good authors is limited enough, and ICE small enough, that it's going to be hard to create and support a setting for every system.  I think keeping up with and adopting Shadow World as official might be the best bet for RM, with freelancers here and there contributing more generic works that could be dropped into it or used on their own by GMs that have their own custom setting.  I also think, moving forward, all setting materials should be dual stated for RM and HARP.  There's just no reason not to IMO.

Although... digital publishing and print on demands take a lot of the risk away from ICE. The way the Channeling Companion is setup, that being that I get my royalties automatically funneled to me at the time of purchase from the distributing site, takes risk away from ICE, leaving the major issue being ensuing the material itself is quality work in the first place (you don't just want to green-light everything thrown at you).  Unless there are problems Nicholas is aware of that I'm not, it'd be a win for everyone.
- Cory Magel

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(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

"The only thing I know about adults is that they are obsolete children." - Dr Seuss

Offline jdale

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Re: So..
« Reply #57 on: November 12, 2018, 10:42:30 PM »
I think you really need a setting for an RPG, even if it's an extremely generic one. I also think it's a good idea to put basic adventure material in that.  But I wonder if these days straight up modules are a good idea again?

It's interesting to see Paizo (and others?) selling campaign modules where, instead of the GM picking and choosing a series of modules and trying to fit them together into a coherent story, the campaign provides that whole long-term story. It's sort of half-way between module and setting. I wonder if a campaign module even needs a fully detailed setting at all. It's a lot easier to write one if the setting already exists, but if the setting is optional, a rule system not tied to a setting could offer a variety.
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Offline Nightblade42

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Re: So..
« Reply #58 on: November 12, 2018, 11:10:46 PM »
That's the balance that needs to be found, I think.  Somewhere between "Everything is done for you Adventure Module" & "So Generic It Ain't Worth Adding" (as the two extremes, I guess).  You're both right about the lack of risk digital ditribution offers companies.  ICE can then concentrate on quality.  Don't get me wrong, Shadow World is an amazing setting & I know Terry puts his heart & soul into it (as I do my own world of Nytheun).  But the popular settings are backed by more than just game products (i.e. modules).  Most of D&D's settings are staples of Fantasy books (Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, Ravenloft, &c…).  Terry's SW novel is a great start; but D&D's settings flourished both in fiction & in RPGs because there were mutiple authors who could increase the product output while having an editorial staff assuring continuity (for the most part).  This sort of thing requires human resources: enough freelance authors & staff to create not only the game modules; but whatever medium might be chosen to support & promote the game (novels; videos; video games even…).

Though, I can understand Terry not wanting to farm out writing duties for SW.  I know I'd have a hard time letting someone else write Nytheun material…

I guess that means ICE needs to find a viable way to make RMU's "genericness" a strength.

But then, that's been the conundrum since ICE lost the MERP license, I guess…

Nightblade ->--

p.s. Backward compatibility & dual stating with HARP I agree are a MUST for RMU, no matter what.

Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: So..
« Reply #59 on: November 13, 2018, 12:02:19 AM »
I think you really need a setting for an RPG, even if it's an extremely generic one. I also think it's a good idea to put basic adventure material in that.  But I wonder if these days straight up modules are a good idea again?

It's interesting to see Paizo (and others?) selling campaign modules where, instead of the GM picking and choosing a series of modules and trying to fit them together into a coherent story, the campaign provides that whole long-term story. It's sort of half-way between module and setting. I wonder if a campaign module even needs a fully detailed setting at all. It's a lot easier to write one if the setting already exists, but if the setting is optional, a rule system not tied to a setting could offer a variety.

I think this concept actually started with Warhammer FRP (the whole Enemy Within series was spectacular), but GW is something of a fluke in that the RPG was a bolt-on for a successful miniatures line. Keep in mind, too, that many video gamers have been conditioned to expect strong and detailed settings with their games (Rockstar is especially good at this, but there are others as well). It doesn't have to be fully fleshed out, but the Enemy Within stuff functioned with detailed campaign module-specific stuff designed to fit into the wider scope of the world (the bones of which was included with the core rules).

I think you need at least some modules to show new gamers how the rules and system work. There's a gap now that didn't exist before, but is in many ways reminiscent of what was happening in the early days of RPGs. You can't just drop rules in peoples' laps and expect them to understand how it all fits together. Those of us who've been doing this for thirty years or so, sure.
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