Topic: How much Math is "Too Much Math"

[Cory Magel]

I have some ideas for advertising that would specifically target D&D users and some that target gamers in general.  But I think I'll leave the details for potential future 'official' discussions.

RM used to have some very cool advertisements.  Things like a crit text of "Foes Skeleton is reduced to a gelatinous pulp. Try a spatula." followed by "Monsters don't kill characters - Criticals kill Characters".  Although, I think I'd reverse the 'character' and 'monster' part these days.

[David Johansen]

I suggested at one point that the old inside front cover ads from Dragon were the main touch stone to Rolemaster for most gamers.  I got told it was a great idea but nothing was ever done with it.

[markc]

Excel fill ins can be quadratic equations or differential calculus, and nobody using them would care if the work was done for them.

But if an effect was +33% concussion hits. . .seemingly not so big a deal in chargen as it's done once, or once per level up. . .but on damage? "You mean I have to figure out 33% of 13 and add it to 13?" seems problematic for some people on the fly repeatedly during combat.

It also does curve back to why RM1 to RM2 got rid of that. . .if you have 20% damage reduction, and I have 30% damage increase, which gets applied first. . .yours 10-2=8+2=10 vs mine 10+3=13-2=11 creates a lot of room for problems.

 IMHO yes. Some people have a fear of math and panic when they see something, that just throws them for a moment. So yes 20% damage reduction is changed to reduce damage by 4 but always take X.


 Also the idea is to open up the game to those who fear and do not fear math or any other specific aspect of game play. But this does limit some thing for the game in general.


MDC

[Usdrothek]

Jeez! How many folks out there think calculating 150% of a number is hard maths?

Its not integration!

I'm not a natural at maths, thats why I use a calculator. Quick, easy and correct. I really don't understand the big deal. I get that, from a business point of view, you want to sell your product to the widest possible target audience, but do people really freak out when asked to halve, double or third a simple number? How do they function in day to day life?

[markc]

How do they function in day to day life?

Good question. But the answer might scare me more than the question itself.
    Then again I have trouble spelling so I use an aid to help me with that.


MDC

[smug]

It's surprising how little arithmetic one needs to do to survive everyday life. You might not get the best deals in the supermarket, and you're maybe not going to put yourself in the best tax situation, but maths isn't really a survival skill for many people, I reckon.

[GrumpyOldFart]

    Then again I have trouble spelling so I use an aid to help me with that.

For years I've done most of the game math in my head, faster than my players could do it with a calculator. That never stopped me from always having a calculator handy when I game.

Using an aid is one thing. Deciding you're not going to use twitter, or text messaging, or email, or internet forums, or post-it notes, or snail mail, or etc, etc. because it's "too much spelling" is another.

 

[smug]

Deciding you're not going to use twitter, or text messaging, or email, or internet forums, or post-it notes, or snail mail, or etc, etc. because it's "too much spelling" is another.

 

Observation suggests that spelling facility is not an impediment to many people's use of twitter, texting, email or internerd forums.

[GrumpyOldFart]

Touche!

 

[Moriarty]

Almost any amount of math you have to do while playing is too much math. It interferes with the flow of the game if you have to pause and do math constantly, calculator or not. Computer games has no problem with this, all math is done in the background, seamlessly, but pen and paper games has a major problem with math. In my opinion, good pen and paper games should try to reduce math which is 'left to the reader' as much as possible. Rolemaster has tables and charts, which is great way to reduce the need for math - just roll the dice and look up the result - it's a kind of magic.


Moriarty, B.Sc. in mathematics

[Marc R]

So math you do occasionally, like on the character sheet process, is OK, but not in play?

[smug]

I love doing mental arithmetic in-play. Keeps my mind active.

[markc]

Almost any amount of math you have to do while playing is too much math. It interferes with the flow of the game if you have to pause and do math constantly, calculator or not. Computer games has no problem with this, all math is done in the background, seamlessly, but pen and paper games has a major problem with math. In my opinion, good pen and paper games should try to reduce math which is 'left to the reader' as much as possible. Rolemaster has tables and charts, which is great way to reduce the need for math - just roll the dice and look up the result - it's a kind of magic.


Moriarty, B.Sc. in mathematics

 I think for you the roll your dice and have a GM with a computer program do all the math is the ticket. Maybe even a web phone app to link to it so players can input there info directly. And of course the GM has to approve the entry before calculation, that way it prevents most data entry errors.
 I guess it would also be required to have a roll back feature so if the GM did say ok to a roll of 60000 instead of a roll of 60, the program could take that entry out and not have to start combat again from scratch.
MDC

[markc]

I love doing mental arithmetic in-play. Keeps my mind active.

 Especially after a few adult beverages. I also have noticed when I GM that as things get later the math can tend to get fuzzy-er but I have learned to live with it and it is all in the name of fun.
MDC

[Moriarty]

So math you do occasionally, like on the character sheet process, is OK, but not in play?

Yes sort of, but I think math should be eliminated or reduced whenever possible, including during character generation and leveling up. It's OK to leave some occasional math to the reader if its the only way to gain maximum realism, detail and scalability. It's not OK to leave occasional math to the reader because the game designer did not have the time or the means to make a table or chart that does the same thing better without math.

[smug]

Problem with charts, of course, is that some people hate them. A chart with the generating formula would cover both bases, I guess.

[markc]

 Or two options that do about the same thing.
MDC

[smug]

Or two options that do about the same thing.
MDC

Certainly, where the chart deviates from a formula (which is often the case).

[Cory Magel]

So math you do occasionally, like on the character sheet process, is OK, but not in play?

In which case everyone should hate any game that uses dice...? 

[GrumpyOldFart]

From a practical business standpoint, I'd guess (please note that it is just a guess) that as long as you stay with addition and subtraction you're okay, and in most cases multiplication. While I personally have no issues with doing division, percentages or fractions in my head, I'd be willing to bet that at that point you start losing potential customer base.

Sad? Absolutely. Nonetheless, I suspect if you were able to build a statistical base to check it, that's what I believe you'd find.