Topic: Cutting the Revision Knot

[pastaav]

Okay, a new input. One thing that is different in the editions is how stats are selected. I think the RMSS point by system has its good point, but I also think that the balance aspect of the point buy is rather overrated.

In my experience players generally spend crazy much time on the first characters to find out how to evaluate the benefit of different stat builds. At later characters they can cut time, but I would argue the spent learning the point buy system is pure waste of time. The gaming experience does IMHO not get better due this complexity. I think the simple random system of RM2 make more sense in the core system.

If you want to ensure that all players get a certain quality in their stats this can better be handled by having some rules for mulligan if the stats are too bad instead of trying create a fair point buy system. 

[Witchking20k]

If random is 40+6D10 I would be into that.  But, having a pure percentile roll is a little harsh.  Starting stats of 46-100 give players a wide range and a mean of 70-75ish (without doing the math)

[Grinnen Baeritt]

I simply allow the players to roll randomly for all the stats in order, apply 90's in the two prime stats, then add up the total, if it is less than 660, then they can points buy with the remainder.

[yammahoper]

purchased stats seem to be the prevalent method in most games now a days.

certainly it can't be difficult to present 2-4 mechanics to generate stats: random, point and pre-established set quickly come to mind.  the rule book then states which method it considers official and will use in making NPC's in modules.

[David Johansen]

Well, I guess I stand in the categories should be a compatible option camp.

This doesn't mean there is a basic and advanced set.

What I'm talking about is about 50 pages of core character creation rules in a single volume with Arms Law and some spell lists as a single volume entry point.  Character Law would contain those 50 pages and then about 200 pages of additional material including the skill categories option.

But I think beyond that the category split is wearing thin, so let's talk about other things we'd like to see in the system.

For myself I love spell lists.  I know many people want scalable or even free form spells and I think those would be great as optional material but spell lists condense things beautifully and codify them.  I like the way different professions develop different things at different rates, it's very flavorful and makes the different magic using professions unique and characterful.

[rdanhenry]

What I'm talking about is about 50 pages of core character creation rules in a single volume with Arms Law and some spell lists as a single volume entry point.  Character Law would contain those 50 pages and then about 200 pages of additional material including the skill categories option.

You're going to duplicate 50 pages of material between books? That'll make any observant customers feel ripped off. Bad idea.

[David Johansen]

Bearing in mind that we're looking at character creation rules with lots of charts that everyone needs a copy of to make a character?  I don't think it'll be an issue.  Besides, if the book primarily exists as a .pdf it's pretty easy to ommit the duplicate part when printing it out if it bothers you.

A three book core is great for the hardcore RM fans but it's a real put off to the new comer.  I feel it's essential to have a complete and functional entry point and a massive complete compendium to please both groups.  In the day of $10 ebooks it seems like a reasonable course.

[Tolen]

Nonetheless, that's one of the things that irks me so much about RMFRP vs. RMSS.  You buy "Spell Law of..." and pay again for the last quarter of the book you got with the last one.

However, I agree with you about the spell lists.  That's one of the major selling points for me, too.  Scaling spells would be nice.  I can understand, however, how they might be somewhat mutually exclusive ideas.

One of my friends is mostly sold on the idea of playing RM, but he keeps asking if there are other options for the use of magic.  He dislikes a certain other games' "Arcane/Divine" split, and RM is only worse in that regard.  I sat down last week to port Ars Magica's system over, feeling that it would be the easiest to merge into RM's skill system, but I didn't have much heart for it.

Using RM as a toolkit, though, could be beneficial.  Give our GM's and gaming groups several choices across the board, let them choose what they want to use.  Two or three stat rolling options (I use the RM2 method myself), two or three spell casting styles, and so on.  I'd probably have an even easier time selling new players on the system if they knew I could build a system they'd like, or even replicate a game they like a lot, with RM style. 

That's one of the biggest things I like about RM, it is (usually) easy to swap different systems in and out.  Maybe a potential revision should try to embrace that?

[rdanhenry]

Basic Spell Law should be a revision of existing version, but should probably include a few guidelines for customizing magic to your setting. However, I see room for a book or books on alternative approaches to magic, since the only major points of integration are really the character creation system (you need to have spells as skills in some sense) and combat (use of RRs and combat tables with cool critical results, tactical casting needs to fit combat round structure), the spell system can be replaced in full with the vast majority of the effort being in working the spell system into shape rather than fitting it to the rest of the game.

[pastaav]

I think there should be two magic systems for the new RM. One should be existing list approach while the other should be College of Magics from Harp. College of magic is a scalable spell system where you can make your own spells, the spells are divided into spheres. I can't honestly see any real gain in developing a parallel scalable spell that by nature will serve the same goals.

[pastaav]

Nonetheless, that's one of the things that irks me so much about RMFRP vs. RMSS.  You buy "Spell Law of..." and pay again for the last quarter of the book you got with the last one.

Why not have a print-on-demand product that is Spell Law Rules and having the lists in one or more separate print-on-demand books?

[pastaav]

I think we can sum up the category issue in the following:
*having categories is essential to RMSS player, that the categories make it easy to add things to the system is no excuse to leave category users with extra work to integrate new material into the category system
*the exact list of categories is not necessary to keep, in fact there are categories that probably should be combined or pruned
*the division of skills over categories is also not necessary to be kept, the important thing is the category concept and not current details 
*if categories are part of the core or an option is not that big issue, but the complete category system should be in the main book.

[pastaav]

Another question...should Combat Companion be an extra book or should be the material be integrated into the RM core?

[GrumpyOldFart]

One of my friends is mostly sold on the idea of playing RM, but he keeps asking if there are other options for the use of magic.  He dislikes a certain other games' "Arcane/Divine" split, and RM is only worse in that regard.

I think there should be two magic systems for the new RM. One should be existing list approach while the other should be College of Magics from Harp.

I think HARP College of Magics already came up with a good answer for this one, that being varying ways of tapping power:

Personal - Limited by the caster's will
Granted - Limited by the caster's influence with a granting entity
Ambient - Limited by the caster's ability to tap the energy budget of the planet he's on.
Fixed - Limited by the caster's ability to find/combine the proper ingredients.

I've most commonly seen the problem in Druids. I honestly can't blame the player who thinks any rule that requires a Druid to draw power from God(s), and more importantly denies him the option of drawing power from the natural flow of his world's energies or from components ('eye of newt and toe of frog', etc.) is too simplistic and too limiting.

[Ecthelion]

For myself I love spell lists.  I know many people want scalable or even free form spells and I think those would be great as optional material but spell lists condense things beautifully and codify them.

However, I agree with you about the spell lists.  That's one of the major selling points for me, too.  Scaling spells would be nice.  I can understand, however, how they might be somewhat mutually exclusive ideas.

Spell Lists and the idea of scalable spells can also be combined. And this even results in somewhat condensed Spell Lists. An article of mine with such a concept was just recently published on TGC. You might want to take a look.

[Tolen]

I'll have to take a look at that, thanks.

[rdanhenry]

I think we can sum up the category issue in the following:
*having categories is essential to RMSS player, that the categories make it easy to add things to the system is no excuse to leave category users with extra work to integrate new material into the category system
*the exact list of categories is not necessary to keep, in fact there are categories that probably should be combined or pruned
*the division of skills over categories is also not necessary to be kept, the important thing is the category concept and not current details 
*if categories are part of the core or an option is not that big issue, but the complete category system should be in the main book.

I would add that not only skill list, but category structure, should vary by genre/setting. Lumping together various disciplines into Science/Analytic*Specialized is fine for a fantasy setting, but any realistic or semi-realistic modern or sci-fi setting should have it broken up to where most of those disciplines become categories with skills for various sub-disciplines. In a wuxia setting with some added skills, I might break Self Control into Self Control*Physical and Self Control*Mental. Obviously, weapon categories change with available weapon sets, and modern/sci-fi RM versions have always accounted for this. A cyberpunk setting might add Awareness*Virtual. It isn't just that the existing categories, skill list, skill assignment to categories, and other detail are imperfect (although they are), it is that no single set of choices about the details will be correct for any given game, so there should be guidelines for adjusting the skill system written into the core rules (and these should be followed by genre books, including the new SpaceMaster).

[David Johansen]

Still with the categories...

Well, I want full compatability between genres so I'm in favor of dividing up the sciences and tech / trades, however I would want to get rid of the unfortunate overlaps that occurred between the sciences and tech / trades as they get helluva confusing.  Is power systems in Tech/ Trade Vocational or Science Analytic / Technical?  In reality I think the division point is pretty obvious at least.  We drop the "Technical" aspect and just have Trades and Sciences.

Spell lists are already scalable with a list of spells that does the scaling and takes into account powerpoint increases along the way.  I do think it should be available to other realms than essence though.

[Cory Magel]

Tossed this poll up just out of curiosity...

http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=10643.msg134917#msg134917

[smug]

Personally, I think that Categories are a decent execution (they had something similar in Shadowrun, of course). I just like Similar Skills because it feels right, to me; I never had anyone write them all out beforehand, though, and it's begging for me to write a computer program to at least select the best similar skill. Of course, this would just be part of my planned but yet-to-be-executed character generator.