Topic: The End of Critical Tables?

[yammahoper]

A while back I suggested an idea where every indiviual weapon had an assined critical range, such as dagger, a crit on attacks 97 or higher, b crits on 108 or higher, etc.  Armor would add or subtract from the critical threat ranges.  The attack tables would disapear but the critical tables remain, perhaps reducing some of the damage RM has suffered in the past when refered to as "chart master".

But what if we removed the critical tables too?  Instead, each weapon would have a range of possible damage done at each crit level.  A dagger could be listed as 2d10 hits base - AT.  A crits do 0-3 bleeding per round, and cause up to light wounds (-5 to -15 penalties).  A GM could determine the penalties any way he desires (fiat) or there could be a simple system (d10, 1-4 nothing, 5-7 1 hit rnd, 8-9 2 hits round, 10 is 3 hits round).

Such a design to figure damage would make the critical damage very fluid and flexible.  For stun, wounds, bleeding, etc a d10 range is created at each level of critical.  A wepon description would look something like this:

Dagger, 2d10+st mod in hits -AT (hits COULD just be removed and hits ONLY tracked to mark bleeding so that hits would still be developed the same).

   A Crit Ranges-
   B Crit Ranges
    Etc

The GM would roll and record damage from a few/handful of d10. 

[frnchqrtr]

And lose the color commentary text?   Nevah!

[Arioch]

The critical tables were the reason why RM was born, and one of the main reasons why I play it, so no thanks, I'll keep my crit charts.
But this could be used as a system to write new critical tables 

[DavidKlecker]

I think this is what makes both RM and Harp superior to other game systems. That the GM has a LOT of room of make changes and still not break the system.

[CuChullain]

I was actually thinking if it would be possible to go the other way; do away with concussion/hit points completely and use crits only to resolve combat, in conjunction with exhaustion points.

Combat and injuries cause fatigue which expends exhaustion points which, in turn affects a person's ability to fight until you get tired enough to let something through that puts you down.

It'd probably make combat fairly savage, though.

[yammahoper]

I was actually thinking if it would be possible to go the other way; do away with concussion/hit points completely and use crits only to resolve combat, in conjunction with exhaustion points.

Combat and injuries cause fatigue which expends exhaustion points which, in turn affects a person's ability to fight until you get tired enough to let something through that puts you down.

It'd probably make combat fairly savage, though.

I agree with removing hits from RM and all damage being applied via crits (even hits if they are kept).

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

I was actually thinking if it would be possible to go the other way; do away with concussion/hit points completely and use crits only to resolve combat, in conjunction with exhaustion points.

Combat and injuries cause fatigue which expends exhaustion points which, in turn affects a person's ability to fight until you get tired enough to let something through that puts you down.

It'd probably make combat fairly savage, though.

fatigue? That sounds kinda like how the Harnmaster rules handle combat, IIRC...

[Ecthelion]

The critical tables were the reason why RM was born, and one of the main reasons why I play it, so no thanks, I'll keep my crit charts.

Same with me. I think I'd play something else if the critical tables were removed.

[yammahoper]

Criticals would remain, only the tables would go.  Would this really be a deal breaker for the current average RM fan?

[Right Wing Wacko]

The critical tables were the reason why RM was born, and one of the main reasons why I play it, so no thanks, I'll keep my crit charts.

Agreed.

[Arioch]

Criticals would remain, only the tables would go.  Would this really be a deal breaker for the current average RM fan?

I can only speak for myself, but IMO the answer is yes. There are many rpgs with rules for critical hits or with a great deal of detail on wounds and healing, but the RM crit tables are unique. Sounds crazy, but really, I think that RM tables, especially critical tables and attack tables are what makes RM stand out and make it interesting.

[RandalThor]

I was actually thinking if it would be possible to go the other way; do away with concussion/hit points completely and use crits only to resolve combat, in conjunction with exhaustion points.

I was thinking about something similar, except everyone had a fairly set number of Hits which depended upon race (size) and physical attributes (mostly Contitution & Strength), they didn't increase except when the character's Constitution and/or Strength went up (reflecting greater health/mass). Now, this would mean they would start out with more hits at 1st level, and those hits would only go up so much as they gain level. The reasoning here is that it is the characters skill at defending that lessens the attacks against them, something RM says in every other aspect. So a 15th level fighter can devote more OB to DB to make the attack deal less damage than a 3rd level fighter. Heck, we all know that it isn't hits that kill you anyway, its them awsomey crits!

There would be no Body Development, though I guess it could be used to deal with Endurance Points, which would definately be affected by how much damage you have taken. (Ever try to run a mile with a knife wound? Much harder, and much more tiring.)

Criticals would remain, only the tables would go.  Would this really be a deal breaker for the current average RM fan?

It wouldn't be a deal reaker for me, I would have to see what it is replaced with. So long as it has at its core the concept that if you roll/do better, you do better. No random damage after random attack. I HATE that! ("Oh! I got 18 over what I needed to hit!! Crap! My damage roll was a one! What was the high attack roll for? Nothing.")

[Fornitus]

 Removing the crit charts would gaurentee I didnt buy any further books with out them. probabally do the same as I did when ICE went under the first time.... I quit looking for what was out there new and just kept on with the old books.
 That is why I looked at HARP lite once......and only once....

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Personally, I believe that the critical tables are one of the main reasons that draw folks to Rolemaster to begin with. I think that without them, there would be many folks less interested.

Now the attack tables, on the other hand....
 

[yammahoper]

I like the crit tables.  Always have since I first bought MERP.  Yet perhaps there is a better way to keep crits without a set of tables?

20 plus years of GMing RM and I assure you I hardly look at the color anymore, just the damage.  I create my own color.  Of course, new players are bound to love the color as much as we did when first encountering it.

Just brain storming.

[Arioch]

I like the crit tables.  Always have since I first bought Not-RM.  Yet perhaps there is a better way to keep crits without a set of tables?

Some time ago someone proposed a set of cards to replace critical tables, imho it could be a nice idea for an optional rule, but having the tables as the standard method is good imho. Surely they can be improved, made more clear and easy/quick to read. With its symbols for critical results RMSS/FRP went in the right direction imho, separating (or at least, trying to) mechanical effects from flavor test and making it easy to understand what the effects of a crit result were at a glance.
There's still much room for improvement, imho: symbols could made be clearer, some mechanical effects that are part of the description could probably be implemented in a different way (especially the ones which are repeated more times, like the effects of shields, helms, etc...), etc.. but overall I think that tables are still the best solution for handling RM criticals

[Witchking20k]

I for one basically use 1 critical table.  The effect ranges are the same, I just nudge it a little based on the weapon & armour combo; but I can be netoriously lazy as a GM.  I do however add my own colour...though I usually keep the location and specific injury suff the same.  In fact I rarely use the attack tables: 50+DB to hit.  +1 to +25=1/2/3(small/Medium/Large) per +5, hitting by increments of +25 yields A/B/C/D/E crits.  I just get the players to add 50 to their basic DB.

Example: 50+10(qu)+25(shield)=85+ to hit
Attacker rolls 55 & has a +65 in Broadsword (medium) =+120
So, the attack is successful yieding 14 hits & an A Crit (120-85=35/5=7*2=14)

Then the roll the crit normally

It annoys the other GM but maybe thats part of my enjoyment!

[Cory Magel]

One of RM's signature traits is critical hits charts, I won't bother going to the reasons why I do or don't think they are a must, but let me give you my take on how Critical Hit charts could be changed.

Each weapon has it's own attack table already right?  HARP uses a combine hit/crit chart, however they have very few and the weapons are limited in their "max" similar to how you talk about.  I think the best solution for Rolemaster is to combine the hit/crit charts but have one for every weapon.  More possibilities, it lets you get fairly specific and more realistic with your color text results, less charts, more consistent results (i.e. no maxing out on the chart and rolling an "01" crit), and no 'only go up to 80 on the chart with this weapon.

Now, having written the two crit charts in the Channeling Companion I can say it would be hell creating all those charts initially, but I think the end result would benefit the game system.

[Cory Magel]

They may need to be modified in one other way too, that being that the normal one page "A" through "E" chart might not quite do it anymore.  To get the many results for the various kinds of armor you'd end up with a huge chart and I'd like to see it kept at a page, maybe two, of results.  So it might have side complications, but then we could start talking about how to modify armor types... 

I think replacing A-E and having them vary by armor type being hit is probably the best solution I've thought of so far.
You'd have No Armor, Leather/Padded, Chain/Ring, Partial Plate, and Full Plate groups or the like instead.

[Marc R]

I'd considered going that route as a solution to part armors, so the plate helmet with chain shirt and leather arm and leggings would be:

Get a hit
roll a location
roll critical that ties to the armor in that location

But in testing it out a little, I ran into the problem that while chain/scale operate somewhat akin vs bash or slash, they operate very differently vs puncture. . .and that's before you get into things like Fire, Acid or lightning. . . for having a caustic liquid or gas tossed on you, chain is almost just something to slow you down without helping at all (if you get any protection, it's from the under padding worn with the chain). . .and you get similar variations between armors that would seem to lay in the same overall bracket.

I also end up making the system more ding or deadly. . .since the columns were armor types, the crit levels became modifiers ala a = -25, B = -10, C = no mod, D = +10 and E = +25. . .

The current crits are roughly 8% fatal, but balance out at C with like 3% on A and 15% on E. . .if you kept that average, the mods for crit levels would mean that A and B crits were never fatal, C crits remain 8% fatal, but D crits are 18% and E are 32% fatal. Admitedly you could use smaller mods than I tested with, but to make them small enough you end up with something like -5/-3/0/+3/+5 which starts to result in minimal variation.

I like the variations in result, though it's super annoying to have your 48E slash with the battleaxe on an Ordainer result in 01 crit "ding! +5 hits". . .things like that are not necissarily bad. . .sometimes people get shot clean in the center chest, just to have the bullet deflect off a St Christopher's medallion and cause a nasty bruise and a cracked rib rather than a fatally punctured heart.

The current crit system has 5 columns of 17 results. . .so any possible weapon vs armor combination could potentially result in a wide variety of attack table results, then 5 x 17 = 85 possible crit results. . . one of the things that made me finally abandon my "use armor category to replace A-E columns" was the fact that if your fighter wears chain mail for his whole career, he will experience 1/5 the amount of variety of results compared to the old A-E mechanic. . .and I think the vast variety of results is a plus. . .A lot of original RM1 people picked up and used each further iteration of Arms Law just to get new flavor text in the crits, as even with 85 possible results on each table, they'd had them repeat enough to get stale and wanted more new results enough to keep re-buying a full book just to use the crit tables in the back.