Topic: Is all Unarmed combat Martial Arts?

[TerryTee]

If two farmers have a fist fight, do they use the Martial Arts skills and the Martial Arts attack tables? It sounds a bit odd, but I can’t seem to find any better options.
-Terry

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

unskilled unarmed fighting should use the Martial Arts attack tables, but with a cap of doing no more than a medium attack (using st/ag bonuses as the OB). If using a version of RM that has Brawling attack tables, those could be used instead (same cap on attack size)

If they have skill in the martial arts, then yes, they can use them.

[Marc R]

Brawling tends to be akin to cowboy movie saloon fighting, where people are rarely seriously injured despite being hit with chairs, bottles or thrown over bars into walls and such.

There are also the Bare Fist and Armored Fist attack tables if you have the versions of Arms Law containing one or the other, for untrained or non martial arts style training attacks that are still with deadly intent.

Generally Wrestling I treat as grappling, I often price it as Martial Arts, but with tiers I-IV doing small to huge Grapple attacks on the Grapple table. (Tier IV is like being grappled by a giant squid, and thus as a Martial art I likely would only allow up to tier II unless playing a cinematic game. . .then again I feel the same about strikes and sweeps)

I also tend to make some use of the Claw Law tables ala Bash or Fall/Crush for various things like throwing someone over the bar into the wall with deadly intent. . .though I rarely use things like Bite or Claw unless the attacker has more than human teeth or claws. (I have used a tiny attack for a human trying to "claw the eyes" out of someone in a rage).

As to skill, If someone wanted to purchase skill in grappling or punching, I have used the MA price, or a weapon price slot dedicated to "unarmed" in different games.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

For such combats, I use the Brawling attack table from RoCoV and the Pummeling critical table from Arms Companion. Alternately, you can use any full attack table (depending on the "weapon" used; for instance, the mace table if a person is striking with a bottle) with the Pummeling critical table since you cannot die from it (as it was created with non-deadly combats in mind)!

[yammahoper]

There is one, maybe two, results on the pummel table that kill.  E 00 is one.  I just threw the book out last weekend, so I cannot refer to it anymore.  Even the color though of the crit shows an accidental death blow (crush windpipe I believe).

[markc]

If two farmers have a fist fight, do they use the Martial Arts skills and the Martial Arts attack tables? It sounds a bit odd, but I can’t seem to find any better options.
-Terry

 Yes any strait punching uses the Martial Arts Chart chart, unless you use the armored fist attack table.


MDC

[providence13]

I just threw the book out last weekend, so I cannot refer to it anymore.

Egads man! One man's trash.. 
I like brawling too, or Subdual.

[yammahoper]

Moved.  A few years back I bought a back up for the entire RMSS collection: gave it away.

Tossed a bunch of stuff: my Greyhawk atlas and guides (all 1st edition stuff ADnD anyway, well worn), all my Twilight 2000 modules (a large stack), all my Star Frontiers stuff, all my RuneQuest Stuff, and all my HERO modules (kepth the two HERO SYTEM, 4th and 5th Ed rulebooks), and all my RM2 compamions.  I just dont use them anymore, and if I need a spell to do something, I just say it exist.  Im the GM.

Almost tossed the RM2 corebooks, but kept those.  I have not been able to get a RM game going in a while, and now that I have moved my SM/RIFTS game is dead.  Bummers all around.

PS:  I left many of those materials just laying in the rooms of the house.  SInce the bank took the place, I figured they could clean it out.  My neighbor Adam called the other day and told me a bunch of people were over at the house, changed all the locks, locked it up and what not, so I doubt its available.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

There is one, maybe two, results on the pummel table that kill.  E 00 is one.

Incorrect. E-00 reads "Foe stops, turns and walks ten feet away before dropping. K-O'd." Even E-66 reads "Foe spends 3 rds trying to pass out. +40 hits."

I just threw the book out last weekend, so I cannot refer to it anymore.

Well I can and did check before posting.

[Marc R]

My problem with the Brawling and Pummeling results is that very aspect. . . .it makes the fighting very cowboy movie saloon brawl, where people are unloading on each other, using improvised weapons and throwing people into walls or over bars into mirrors and in the end it's all scrapes and bruises rather than broken bones, major cuts or death.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

To better clarify what I said before:
[oRule=
Official Ruling on Unskilled, Unarmed Fighting]
Unskilled, unarmed fighting should use the Martial Arts (or the Brawling) attack tables, but with a cap of doing no more than a medium attack (max of small for humanoid characters under 3.5' in height). The attacks use the MA Strikes criticals for punches and kicks, the Grappling critical table for wrestling/grappling type attacks.

The OB for unskilled, unarmed is the character's Strength and Agility bonuses (averaged or added, depending on version of RM), and any profession/level bonuses for combat skills.

If the character has skill in the martial arts (including such variants as Boxing or Wrestling), then it isn't "unskilled" anymore, but yes, the Martial Arts can be used - as Martial Arts.
[/oRule]

The Pummeling table isn't part of the current official RM as it comes from a product that ICE does not hold the full rights to, therefore it isn't considered to be part of the official response. Unofficially, I would only use the Pummeling critical table if the character was deliberately pulling his punches and trying to not seriously hurt the foe.

[yammahoper]

There is one, maybe two, results on the pummel table that kill.  E 00 is one.

Incorrect. E-00 reads "Foe stops, turns and walks ten feet away before dropping. K-O'd." Even E-66 reads "Foe spends 3 rds trying to pass out. +40 hits."

I just threw the book out last weekend, so I cannot refer to it anymore.

Well I can and did check before posting.

So much for perfection.  Thanks for looking though.  Must be the brawling crt table im mis-recalling.

[rdanhenry]

Pummeling can still kill, of course. After all, when he drops, that's a +0 Fall attack and that Fall/Crush table is fairly nasty. 

[TerryTee]

Thanks for a lot of input and clarifications.
I guess my main focus here is to understand what different skills are used. Since brawling is a gang fight thing it has very limited use. I think I just need to get my head around tying Martial Arts to more then Karate and Judo;-)
I’m ok with Martial Arts including all different types of fighting styles, including boxing and Greek wrestling. But I have a hard time putting fist fighting farmer style as a Martial Arts Style or School of fighting. Same goes for Street fighting (very odd term by the way).
Anyway, I’ll let character that are not martial artist but have been in a fist fight before develop the Martial Arts Rank I skill.
-Terry

[giulio.trimarco]

TerryTee,

western martial arts were much more developed than we normally think.
Punches, holds, throws, etc., much the some way of oriental counterpart.
Another mistake is that we often envision a fist-fight of medieval times like one of our days... wrong!

Some examples:





And many other techniques.
So, imho, yes, you could easily use martials arts strikes/sweeps tables.

 

[Elton Robb]

Technically, if you are trained to use something to hurt something or someone else, then you're a martial artist.  If you are untrained, then this should fall under the brawling or MA striking attack tables (rank one, although you can hit hard enough to kill with your own two bare hands).