Topic: Arcane RR

[Forkbeard]

If a character is attacked by an Arcane spell he sums all his stat bonuses (incl. those for race) for all three realm stats, as specified in section 8.7.

My question is what happens to his realm based bonuses for Race, e.g. Dwarf Ess+40, Mnt+40?

The only sensible options are to average those bonuses OR ignore them (for Arcane).

My next question is where is this mentioned in the RMSS rule book?

Regards
James

[Arioch]

No race get RR bonus to Arcane, IIRC.

[Forkbeard]

Okay, so you're saying ignore them.

Forgive me, I'm too old to remember all the acronyms , does IIRC mean Rolemaster Companion II? If so I thought that book referred to Rolemaster 2, not RMSS.

[Arioch]

IIRC = If I Remember Correctly 

I think no race gets RR bonuses to Arcane realm (as no bonus is listed in Arcane Companion nor in Races and Cultures), but I'm not sure about that!

[Forkbeard]

Told you I was bad with acronyms

Many thanks. I'm on the fence on this, but think your suggestion is very sensible.

All the best,
James

[Steve_990]

NOt saying this is correct or by the rules, but we just added all 3 realm total bonuses to RR together and divided by 3 for Arcane. Seemed to work out fine.

[rdanhenry]

I believe you add the bonuses for all three realms, just as you add two realm bonuses for Hybrid spells.

[markc]

 The info is in the Arcane Companion I think but I will have to get back to you on that page # and table #.
MDC

[Forkbeard]

Many thanks, that would be most helpful.

[markc]

 The racial chart is on page 19 and the rule for Arcane RR's is on page 20.

 But I do not see a ruling or a section for racial bonuses. So IMO you could go a number of ways. 1) No bonus. 2) Add all the racial bonuses together and divide by 3. 3) Use the lowest racial bonus to RR for the Arcane RR. 4) Use the highest racial bonus for the Arcane RR.

 I would not have any racial bonuses to save vs arcane in my game. That is unless I redesigned all of the races to include the Arcane RR field as a save option.

MDC

[rdanhenry]

The Arcane Companion doesn't specify (one of its many flaws), but I thought I recalled a ruling. I may be wrong.

Ah, John W. Curtis wrote in what does not appear to have been an official ruling, but only a "how I do it", in an Oct. 11, 2000 post to the mailing list:

And yes... btw, the racial mods are added together
(just like they are for Arcane RRs)... so if you race
has a -5 to Essence and a -5 to Channeling, you have a
-10 to resist a Sorcerer's base spell (plus your stat
bonuses of course).

Note that he *assumes* this is the way Arcane RRs are done and he uses that as his model for Hybrid RRs, which was the subject. Given that he was co-Designer and Editor on the Arcane Companion, I think it is fair to say that this was the *intent*, even though the sloppy execution of ArcCo makes it not an actual rule.

[markc]

 I also saw that note in the Arcane companion about adding together the RR's for hybrid spells.

 You can also look at the dispelling Arcane spells section as a guide on how to deal with Arcane RR's.

 After some searching through some/quite a few old RM2 books I found this rule on the top left of page 5 in RoCo I. When resisting Arcane spells add together the 3 RR racial bonuses for magic and divide by 3.
 Since that is the rule from the first instance of Arcane spells I would go with it.

Hope that helps.
MDC

[Arioch]

And yes... btw, the racial mods are added together
(just like they are for Arcane RRs)... so if you race
has a -5 to Essence and a -5 to Channeling, you have a
-10 to resist a Sorcerer's base spell (plus your stat
bonuses of course).

Note that he *assumes* this is the way Arcane RRs are done and he uses that as his model for Hybrid RRs, which was the subject. Given that he was co-Designer and Editor on the Arcane Companion, I think it is fair to say that this was the *intent*, even though the sloppy execution of ArcCo makes it not an actual rule.

So Dwarves and Halfling are basically immune to Arcane attack spells... I'll stick with no bonuses, thanks.

[Forkbeard]

I agree the summation of bonuses makes Arcane RR for dwarves (and others like them) very easy to make. I would argue that no bonus or an average would be more appropriate.

This is also true for hybrid spells, Essence/Mentalism for dwarves would grant a huge bonus if added together (+80), and halflings even worse (+90).

Regards
James

[Marc R]

IIRC you average two realms for a hybrid, and all three for Arcane.

i.e.

Your character has:

+10 vs Essence
+20 vs Channeling
+15 vs Mentalism

They would be +15 vs Essence/Channeling Sorcery (+10+20=30/2=+15)
They would be +15 vs Arcane (+10+20+15=45/3=+15)

Your racial bonuses are already part of the individual realm bonuses and thus get averaged into your hybrid and arcane bonuses.

They're averaged, not totalled.

Hmm, that's RM2 logic. . .RMSS is

Ch = 3xIn
Me = 3xPr
Es = 3xEm
Ch/Es = In+Em
Arcane = In+Em+Pr

And it says nothing at all about if racial bonuses are added or averaged or ignored for Hybrids or Arcane.

I'd still say that the above comes close to the RM2 logic, and it's a bit over the top to add them all, and rough to ignore them. . .the only real variation is hybrids are a bit harder to resist, yet the arcane bonus is the same as the RM2 version (which is whacky, but typical) if calculated differently.

I'd still average the racial RR bonuses in. .

[Marc R]

(I could swear this was resolved in the RMSS errata, but the link on the ICE webring is down.)

[Forkbeard]

I've been in the vault and the errata isn't very useful, one is an RMSS contents page update the other a Spell Law Shifting spell update.

From the Rulings document from The Vault:

• A hybrid's realm stat is the average of the two realm stats for his two realms [R, 1/8/00]
• Hybrid's get the own realm bonus to RRs against both of their realms. [1/13/00]
• Hybrids get the own realm bonus against hybrid base spells that share one of their realms. [1/15/00]
• Arcanists only get the own realm bonus to RRs against Arcane. [1/13/00]

None of these answer the question, sadly.

James

[Marc R]

As a GM, I'd default back to the RM2 averaging logic. . .the hybrid drop to just 2 stats is off pattern, but arcane at In+Em+Pr vs the statx3 of the realms, is the same result as if you averaged them.

Anyone have the most up to date Jonathen Dale RMSS excel sheet? I'm pretty sure there was a ruling made in errata at some point, and that whatever the answer was ended up included in the calculation for RRs on that sheet. I might be mistaken in my recollection, but there's definitely a hard caclulation on that sheet that could be checked to give an answer as to what was the offical formula for it at the time he made the sheet.

[edxs]

I'll have to dive into the magic system but I'd be inclined to use the highest RR bonus against hybrid/arcane due to the other advantages inherent in multi-realm casting.

[mocking bird]

Anyone have the most up to date Jonathen Dale RMSS excel sheet? I'm pretty sure there was a ruling made in errata at some point, and that whatever the answer was ended up included in the calculation for RRs on that sheet. I might be mistaken in my recollection, but there's definitely a hard caclulation on that sheet that could be checked to give an answer as to what was the offical formula for it at the time he made the sheet.

That and another excell sheet I have add racial bonuses (which is how we ahve always played it) for arcane giving a +80 off the bat so yes, dwarves can eat arcane with some fava beans and a nice chianti for breakfast.