Topic: A Thought On Training Packages

[David Johansen]

While I love TPs in principle I'm not too fond of them in practice.

The great thing about them is that they essentially give RMSS a life path system.  You know where you've been.  They also help to reduce the number of professions.  Well okay they should it's debatable whether they really did.

My complaints are somewhat wide ranging.

TPs hand out bonus items.  Not to mention the annoyance of having to roll for long lists of them.

Stacking TPs can totally break the level system.

TPs are just too good.  You get a price break on the skills, you get free stuff, and they stack to completely invalidate level based pricing.  Any one of these would be acceptable but taken as a whole they're annoying.  The good thing about the price break is that it makes some expensive career choices available at first level.  The good thing about the stuff is that you should probably have some of that stuff though I'd prefer a fixed equipment package.  The great crime of stacking them is that there are talents to get Occupational or Everyman status for the skills you stack it's not that hard to get rank 12 or more at first level.

So what's to be done?

I don't favour re-writing the packages completely.  I like my companions and supplements.  I don't favour a cap of one package per level either as that gets rid of the whole life path thing and is even more problematic in Spacemaster Privateers.

What do I think the answer is?

Experience Points.

I think there should be a fixed number of experience points tied to each training package that causes the character to level up if it's stacked.  If you level up in this manner, you get proportionally reduced DPs.  Sure you'll occasionally get PCs of different levels but I think it will discourage the worst excesses.

[markc]

 A couple of points from the book.
1) TP's can not increase a skill above 10 ranks , unless it is a life style skill in which it is 15 ranks. So you have to keep a record of where you get the skill ranks from. ie TP, Exp at level 1, level 2 from GM or from any other source. This adds book work but IMO it is needed.
2) Yes with OOC and Everyman skills you can get high bonuses from them at low levels.
3) A lot of people do not use the items and specials section of the TP. IMO I like and sort of do not like them depending on the TP and game I run.
4) Everyone should use the new TP cost chart from the ICE Vault. Otherwise there are going to be some unbalancing issues with TP's.

 In my game I allowed as many TP per level as they wanted and let the time factor and amount of DP they had work out the rest. Also at PC gen I allowed a PC to spend 10 Talent Points to cut the cost of a TP in 1/2. You could only do that once per level but I let them spend Talent Points to prorate TP in other levels. IMO it also worked well.

 As you said in SM:P TP's carry a lot of weight in that specific TP's were necessary for specific things. So yes sort of like a life path. IMO I loved the new level of detail but maybe that is only me.

 I will think on the experience point idea but IMO it should also have a time aspect as well. And that time aspect IMO is the hard part.
MDC

[craggles]

4) Everyone should use the new TP cost chart from the ICE Vault. Otherwise there are going to be some unbalancing issues with TP's.

Yes - Definitely! ICE brought out a master TP cost for all professions because each companion seemed to use a different matrix for the costs and I was surprised how much some of the prices had changed from certain companions compared to the Master TP List PDF and the Master TP List Excel sheet

he great crime of stacking them is that there are talents to get Occupational or Everyman status for the skills you stack it's not that hard to get rank 12 or more at first level.

As well as Marks comments on stacking TPs, Ranks gained from TPs ignore the Occupational and Everyman types as do Adolescent and Hobby ranks. Occupational and Everyman types only affect the ranks added through levelling up.

TPs hand out bonus items.  Not to mention the annoyance of having to roll for long lists of them.

I agree! And it's not good to watch one player totally fail on every single item and then the next player gain every one of them. Particularly if the players in question are my daughters.

For the items, I think there could be a point system for each TP and the list of items for that TP with point costs. You can then decide to 'buy' (with your points) the 1 big item and use all your points in one go or you could decide to buy a few of the smaller costing items instead.

The random 'winning' (and most of the time 'loosing') of items isn't fair.

Actually, I'm feeling the need to go through al the TPs and make up some costs!
...or I should just do some work!

On a side note, I can understand the race descriptions breaking from the format of each race per page in the 'Races & Cultures' book as there was a lot of info presented per race but I'm not keen of the break from the 2 TPs per page format in the newer RMFRP books. 2 per page made it easier to look through them and also for photocopying the relevant pages and keeping a master TP list (of just TPs) stapled together for easy reference. 

[Arioch]

What do I think the answer is?

Experience Points.

I think there should be a fixed number of experience points tied to each training package that causes the character to level up if it's stacked.  If you level up in this manner, you get proportionally reduced DPs.  Sure you'll occasionally get PCs of different levels but I think it will discourage the worst excesses.

Could you make an example? 

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Yes - Definitely! ICE brought out a master TP cost for all professions because each companion seemed to use a different matrix for the costs and I was surprised how much some of the prices had changed from certain companions compared to the Master TP List PDF and the Master TP List Excel sheet

In fact, each book DID use a different formula. The main editor at the time was loathe to share out the formula used. Shortly before the old ICE died, one of the last editors they had actually published the then current formula. That last formula was used by an ICE fan (Sheila H.) to create a spreadsheet for figuring costs, and I then used that spreadsheet to create the Master TP Cost list (i.e. a 12 page table!!!!!)

TPs hand out bonus items.  Not to mention the annoyance of having to roll for long lists of them.

Personally, I don't think that these should have been part of the TPs. At most, a list of potential items should have been given with the note "Choose one", and all of the items should have been of equivalent usefulness/value (i.e. no magical items).


Training Packages are, in my opinion, an excellent idea. I just am not fond of how they were implemented.   That seems to be my personal issues with much of RMSS/FRP, not being fond of how a number of things were implemented (my pet peeve being O/E/R skills - shudder -)

[David Johansen]

Well, I guess on the experience point equivilancy I'd go with 100 times the dp cost.  So a 50 dp package would represent 5000 XP and when the character reaches second level they get 50% of their normal DPs.  Because really that's what a TP represents, prior experience at the cost of time.  Given the sliding scale used in Tim's chart, higher cost TPs have a greater discount anyhow.  It's a way (albeit a touch clunky) of maintaining the meaning of the term "level" without completely changing the rules.

TPs don't benefit from special skills?  I'll have to look it up.  Mind you I've got four different versions of the rules to look at.  RMSS, RMSS pdf, RMfrp, & SPAM.

[markc]

craggles;
 Thanks for the catch on the E,O,R skills from TP's not affecting them. I often forget that part, especially since it is tied up in a character generator.

MDC

[craggles]

TPs don't benefit from special skills?  I'll have to look it up.  Mind you I've got four different versions of the rules to look at.  RMSS, RMSS pdf, RMfrp, & SPAM.

Hi David, the following is in MFRP page 23 (the last paragraph at the bottom before the italicised example):
"Note that the skill remains in its standard category and the category is not affected in any way. In addtion, hobby skills, adolescence skills, and training package skills are not affected by these classifications."

I often forget that part, especially since it is tied up in a character generator.

Hi MDC, I used to miss out most of the character development info from the books myself too because the Excel sheet does it all for me - it's only now that I'm editing the sheet am I more aware of the rules now (and which is why I've been asking about Encumbrance etc).

[craggles]

Hi David

It's also stated on Page 43 of Spacemaster.

I can't comment on the RMSS though as although I have all the companions that weren't reprinted under the RMFRP brand, I don't have any of the core rule books that were rejigged/rehashed (RMSS, Talent Law, Spell Law etc)

EDIT: ...but it's listed in both books in the section about Occupational, Everyman & Restricted skills but not, as far as I can make out, in the section for TPs which would cause confusion.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

And the official ruling has always been (at least since the new ICE) that skill ranks from TPs are not subject to rank adjustments from O/E/R skill classifications.

And that they do not count against the number of ranks that may be purchased in a level.

In short, the skill ranks from a Training Package are a side effect of the TP, the ranks themselves are not purchased and thus do not count when dealing with effects involving "purchased ranks"

[David Johansen]

That's what I get for not playing for a year...

sigh

[markc]

That's what I get for not playing for a year...

sigh

Hay it is easy to forget some of the little stuff.
MDC

[David Johansen]

Though, I'm probably messed up because I'm pretty sure that at least once I've had to house rule TPs not stacking with Special skills because I couldn't find the rule in the book.

After the last campaign tanked I literally boxed up my Rolemaster stuff.  I've run a little Warhammer frp and some Castles & Crusades in the last year but that's about it.

We're moving back to the city next month and I'm starting to think about doing the ultimate RMSS campaign I always wanted.  Or maybe a SPAM campaign.  I dunno, it'll be nice to be closer to the gaming action again after three years of being 45 minutes drive from it.  Well that and having a house there so we can game there instead of at the store that locks up the bathroom at 5:00 PM.

[markc]

Though, I'm probably messed up because I'm pretty sure that at least once I've had to house rule TPs not stacking with Special skills because I couldn't find the rule in the book.

After the last campaign tanked I literally boxed up my Rolemaster stuff.  I've run a little Warhammer frp and some Castles & Crusades in the last year but that's about it.

We're moving back to the city next month and I'm starting to think about doing the ultimate RMSS campaign I always wanted.  Or maybe a SPAM campaign.  I dunno, it'll be nice to be closer to the gaming action again after three years of being 45 minutes drive from it.  Well that and having a house there so we can game there instead of at the store that locks up the bathroom at 5:00 PM.

 Hay I was close to the city by the Bay and I still decided to drive 45 min because of the lack of good gamers.
MDC

[pastaav]

About the issue of TPs being too good it is very revealing to calculate the true cost of skills in the TPs and compare. I wrote some about it earlier in the thread http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=52.0

Perhaps you might find it worth a look.

[David Johansen]

Yup, Pastaav I'm totally in agreement with you.  There's not really much reason for the discount.

Incidendally I rebuilt every last Training Package in the Spacemaster Accelerator by hand using the current formula.  So I'm pretty familiar with what goes where.

I did have a fun idea for TPs today I'd like to share.  Suppose all TPs are strictly tied to a single profession and that taking a TP is how you multiclass.  The time requirement would really make sense here and avoid the profession of the week issues that could come up with just changing whenever a character levels up.  This would also mean that TPs would only need a single cost and I'm pretty sure Tim would love that.

[markc]

Yup, Pastaav I'm totally in agreement with you.  There's not really much reason for the discount.

Incidendally I rebuilt every last Training Package in the Spacemaster Accelerator by hand using the current formula.  So I'm pretty familiar with what goes where.

I did have a fun idea for TPs today I'd like to share.  Suppose all TPs are strictly tied to a single profession and that taking a TP is how you multiclass.  The time requirement would really make sense here and avoid the profession of the week issues that could come up with just changing whenever a character levels up.  This would also mean that TPs would only need a single cost and I'm pretty sure Tim would love that.

 I do not understand the multi-class comment. Can you please explain? And in SM:P anyone can buy any skill so you do not need to multiclass.
MDC

[David Johansen]

Well, people always seem to want to multiclass.  Now the advantages in RM are pretty huge if you let people do it.  But if you have to take two years out of play to change classes, well then it makes more sense and is fairer.  My idea is that Training packages could partially represent multiclassing.  Want your mage to become a fighter?  Spend a couple years training to be a knight.  It gets rid of the nightmarish task of computing and compiling TP costs for every last profession and handles the concept of multiclassing.

It also occurs to me that this would be a good evolutionary change as one could simply say that the old TP costs are still valid but that like the new TPs only one cost should be used.  One small chart could make all of RMSS's Training packages compatible with the new edition.

[pastaav]

One simple fix for the current TPs costing would be to add the rule that TPs must be bought before ordinary ranks and that you can at most place one rank on any single skill. No double buying with other words to reduce the impact from the TP costing scheme not considering the raised cost for the second rank.

[Dark Schneider]

My opinion is that, if you pay in time, where is the problem?, we don't use the 10 ranks limit, you always can learn something new, if you have 30 ranks, the difference is that you obtain only +0.5 (+1 for our system) instead +5, so you learn less.

The usual is learn TPs at level 1 (use all DPs you can to buy TPs), beucase after that, how many players want to be out of play with their character to do a TP?.