Topic: History of Ulor

[Walt]

Hi eg

not to correct you, and it?s also of no importance for the following; when I read correctly, Ly-Aran was taken in few months in SE 3750. Blitzkrieg. And with this ressources Lorgalis was capable of building a fleet versus Xa?ar. But that?s some minor detail.

So you have the same opinion than me, that he would destabilize the region because at this time he is at his peak of military might and has no interest in forstering trade. I would do it, but I?m not a thousands year old super-smart super being.

For the trade lines of Jaiman: I also think all the trade moves down to the Bay of Lethys. With Norek, Gul and Lethys being the key players. And you are right, like Elric also pointed out, there would have been a time where the Port of Norek located so near to Ly-Aran would have looked at with fears. And probably only the bolder traders used the much faster route via Norek-Cynar to trade with Zor. And gradually this would have been changed, after people realized that Lorgalis doesn?t strike.

Thanks for all your work about the navigators and the situation in Emer, I missed this.

I have the feeling that the Bay of Lethys in this time was the mayor battlefield of Jaiman in this time. Lethys (Rhkahaan), Norek (independent) and Gul (U-Lyshak) trying to dominate the area. And if you look at the map, we musn?t forget Lorgalis is holding Ly-Aran. And that?s a big, big coast, where you can hide a lot of ships!!!

[egdcltd]

I had originally thought that Norek would have a fair amount of the trade in the region going through it. However, when looking at the Norek timeline, that would appear to not be the case:

3600 Original tribe reaches 200. Norek is founded by tribe.
3700 Caverns are found an expanded in Norek islands.
3950 Norek is fortified. Tribe shuns visitors.
4200 Norek population becomes too high to support without commerce/aid. King adopts lenient policy regarding trade and visitors.

That would seem to suggest that Norek didn't actually start becoming a trading port until 4200, which is several centuries after the period in question.

Lethys, being part of Rhakhaan, one of only two powers in Jaiman at this time is well placed to take advantage of this. It would probably dominate Nea Bay (map on rear of Haalkitaine supplement). Lorgalis controls the lands at the north side at the end of the Bay of Deadly Breakers, where it enters the ocean. One question is are ships built locally there, or do they come around the outside of Jaiman from the Bay of Ulor. Quite an important question really.

Also, what condition are Plesidar and Meluria in at this time? Plesidar is described today as having a powerful fleet. Would this have been true back then? If so, Lorgalis would have problems conducting sea operations in the area, with countering forces from Rhakhaan and Plesidar.

[Elrik]

I would say that back in the day, Plesidar had no choice but to have a strong fleet or a small, fast fleet. I would guess growing up in that area would teach you pretty fast to be good or be dead. Every Island nation seems to become a water power, really have no choice if you want to keep everyone from claiming your coasts.

One question is are ships built locally there, or do they come around the outside of Jaiman from the Bay of Ulor. Quite an important question really.
I would guess if they didn't have ship yard by the time Lorgalis rolled in, they would have within a few years. So Yes.

I  would guess that prior to the Kaeden snacking on the locals Plasidar was probably a strong presence at the mouth of the Bay. They would be the first stop for any invaders or pirates so they would have to keep their eyes sharp.

[Walt]

Yeah, you are right eg, the timeline of Norek is complete nonsense. I?ve trewrite it for my campaign because it doesn?t fit at all in Terrys timeframe.

I  would guess that prior to the Kaeden snacking on the locals Plasidar was probably a strong presence at the mouth of the Bay. They would be the first stop for any invaders or pirates so they would have to keep their eyes sharp.

I would guess to. Because Plasidar was a duchy of U-Lyshak in the Second Era. And if even in the Third Era Gul on Plasidar is the second biggest port of all over Jaiman, it?s reasonable to assume that it was in the second era the biggest port, much bigger than Lethys, with also a big military fleet to counter any moves of Lorgalis in the Bay of Lethys.

[egdcltd]

So, the bay was pretty much dominated by a triumvirate of powers at that time: Norek - assuming the Norek timeline is shifted about a 1,000 years or more, Lethys - as the main port and largest city of one of the two primary powers (outside Lorgalis) and Plasidar. They could probably between them make construction of ships in the parts of Ly-aran on the bay very difficult for Lorgalis, meaning ships would have to come from further away, possibly from the Bay of Ulor itself.

[Walt]

Yap, I think to shift the timeline of Norek 1000 years would make sense.

Another idea: it?s often stated that during the war between Rhakhaan and Urulan a lot of the elvish population left Urulan in favour for Remiraith and the Blue Forest.
Now Elves leaving the island Urulan (with Rhakhaan like we discussed having no or only scarce naval ressources and a complete state -Tanara- and a mountain range -the grey mountains- in between would be nonsense.
Could it be that most the elvish tribes fleeing Urulan left for the security of the Ulor domain, now living somewhere in Ly-Aran??

And how, under the describes circumstances, could Rhakhaan make war with Urulan? Through Tanara? With ships coming through the bay of Lethys, navigating the whole southern coastline if Jaiman?

[Elrik]

Lobing rocks from the shore.

"Take that you tree hugging, pointy eared, I have no idea what sex you are, long lived, sleeping with my wife - JERKS!"

I am under the impression that Tanara is actually quite developed. They have their old roads and I am certain that the Sulini are not going to stand against the Rhakhaan forces as they move in and build Ship yards. It takes a year to build the facilities to build ships. So that could be a two pronged attack, one group sweep down around the bottom of Urulan and land on the west side while ships come out of the bay of Tanara and aim straight at her "landable" coast. The war did go on for 300 years.

[egdcltd]

Reading the timelines, at a couple of times Rhakhaan pretty much controlled Tanara.

From Cloudlords of Tanara:

SE c6010-6028 King Arej IX of Rhakhaan, at the urging of one of his councillors (the White Mage), annexes much of what was once southern Zor. He stops wearing the Phoenix Crown, and falls further under the Mage?s spell. He becomes obsessed with becoming Emperor of all Jaiman. Much of Tanara is occupied by Rhakhaan forces. Only the Elves of Urulan stand in his way to ruling the entire continent.

TE c4010 ? 4500: There is increasing prejudice against the Elven-kind, leading to internal strife. Many Elves flee the country for Urulan. As Rhakhaan conquers Tanara, many Sulini, Talath, and even D?ranaki seek refuge in southern Urulan. They are welcomed by King Valtanis and integrated into the population.

That would make it easier for Rhakhaan to launch assaults against Urulan.

[Walt]

Thanks for the reminder. So the proud Duranaki, once ruler of Tanara, were crushed by the military forces of Rhakhaan already in SE c6000. I didn?t realize it.

[Elrik]

I don't think they where crushed. I think the lands above their head was annexed and forces placed. There would be some forces that chose to resist and others that would have left, but I doubt there would have been crushing. Just going by a xenophobic culture, if Rhakhaan did crush their people, the Duranki would have dug deeper and forced all of their entry gates to collapse to ensure safety. 

When a new force moves in, some will not take a chance and leave, others will stay. I would guess that 75 to even 80% of the Tanaran population stayed to take their chances, the rest would have bolted for lands less filled with Imperial troops.

I am certain an element of the population fought, and still may be fighting.

[Walt]

Hi Elric,

you are mixing up (would this be proper English??) the Second Era and the Third. (or I misunderstood you)
In the Second Era the people which later will become the Duranaki are no subterran culture. Their living normally, like all the other people of Jaiman.

But thanks for the idea with the "bolting" - looking at the map their are not to many places where the could have gone. One for sure is Urulan, the other into the Yinka country (by the way, are they already existing in the SE?) the last towards Wuliris (or they left the continent)

[egdcltd]

The Yinka didn't reach the region until the early TE:

c. 500: Ochu people fleeing oppression in northern Emer cross the Melurian Straits and come to the southern shores of Tanara. They become known as the Yinka.

[Elrik]

Hey Walt,

I think I am in the right place   

Cloud Lords
SE c. 5500 - 6500: The D?ranaki, living in fear of attacks from above, begin to move underground on a more permanent basis. They expand and improve their cavern-homes and begin to adapt to subterranean living.

This is only in the Cloud Lords...
SE c6010-6028 - Much of Tanara is occupied by Rhakhaan forces. Only the Elves of Urulan stand in his way to ruling the entire continent  I don't think there was that much of a force to be dealt with. Most of the real power moved underground over the first 500 years of their subterranal existence. Those that stayed above would be the ones that refused to go underground, and a number running away to Urulan. The hold outs would have returned and possibly gone underground over the next 500 years.

The War of Dominion happens: Afterwords Rhakhaan is even smaller then when it started off.

TE c4010 ? 4500 - Rhekhaan seems to return to Tanara. Again, surface people run. I simply can not see Rhakhaan getting into the caves of the Duranki. But all that land is only held by Talath, some bitter laans in a cave, water elves and lugroki. No real force other then the bitter laan.

It took me a while to find the 6010 reference as I don't use Cloud Lords much.

[Elrik]

... quickly pulling my butt out of the copyright conversation that I stupidly started...

In regards to the current troubles of U-Lyshaak...

Master Atlas 4, pg 40, Summer of 6053 (General Trends) top left corner.
Jaiman: Rhakhaan is at peace, the forces of the Dragon lord and Dansart having retreated north to lick their wounds. The western frontier is mostly calm under the reign of King Kier I (who has his own problems with the forces of the Warlord of Saral and the raiders of Ulor).

I doubt the raiders are a new thing, I have made them Lugroki at this time but earlier in the era they could have been a mix of human and lugroki. I still doubt Ulor could have controlled the bay but that doesn't mean they didn't scare the crap out of many a trader.

Back to my corner

[Walt]

Hi Elric,

thanks first for the work on Tanara. I never realized that their is an updated version of Tanara. Is this the one available as pdf?

For the raiders of Ulor and the subject of Ulor controlling the Bay...their will never be absolute truths. But, the good thing is, with this we already have made to possible books: one mentioning the utter and absolute dominance of Ulor, and another one denying it.

Like I tried to explain, for me it?s more important to get a feeling about the situation. And the consequences out of this. If Ulor is at least scaring the doodoo out of traders, their will be consequences for the far-see trade. And other important centers will develop

[egdcltd]

Hi Elric,

thanks first for the work on Tanara. I never realized that their is an updated version of Tanara. Is this the one available as pdf?

This is it: [Dead Link Removed by Admin]

And other important centers will develop

Such as Norek and Lethys.

[Walt]

I suppose that good old Logarlis was the financier behind the expedition discovering the Kadean on Plasidar.
Ahh, I like this guy!

[Elrik]

Hey guys, I bought the Cloudlords PDF and it was not up to date. I own the original book and they are pretty much the same, minus the coke stains, age wrinkles and worn bits. Although by reading that book, and the time line, you get a pretty good sense of what is going to happen. In the current game period, things are stabilizing, because of the alliance, trade is at an all time high and so on. Now all those forces kept under control by the presense of the Yinka and the Myri tension, is allowed to grow... a great time for a Necromancer! I would guess that for the sake of speed, the Rhakhaan soldiers that had to deal with the Yinka burned the bodies or buried them in mass graves. In human history mass graves where considered easier, no cleaning up of the remains, just put some dirt over the bodies and move along. A real time saver... 

On another angle, I think Rhakhaan left the Duranaki territory to the Duranaki. The Powers that Run Rhakhaan would have let the Duranaki hold the lands in Trust. I just can't see a Nation like Rhakhaan making an alliance with a nation they crushed or own. Why deal with you can just take? Then again, trying to conquer an underground people is a very dangerous affair. I can even see some arrogant over dressed ambassador, wearing to much Aqua Velva, handing some trite bit of paper to represent the Trust the Empire has in letting the Duranaki hold territory they have held for thousands of years...

Ambassador: "Thank you for taking on this great and heavy responsibility."
Duranaki Prince: "Yea... aaaa... Thanks?"
Ambassador: "We trust you will respect the Lands and it's Peoples?"
Duranaki Prince: "You got it. We done here?"
Ambassador: Goes home, ends up crying in the tub at the absurdity of his duties.

There was a website with Lethys, who ever did it put in a metric tonne of work. I may have it backed up somewhere, maybe...

As for Norek, it wouldn't be that hard to clean up the time line. As was stated before, move it's history back nearly 1000 years and we are well on our way to a very different region.

Early years: cluster of loose communities. Due in part to numbers and stability other people moved into the region. Eventually becoming a small city. Inevitably they started to need sewer systems and other water control systems.

Early to Mid years: Nasty Force XX has attacked and sacked the city for many years and many times. The elders leverage trade and build a defensives wall. Maintaining a navy for a city is a massive overly expensive venture, so they build a few war ships and pass laws that turn all ships at dock into Militia Vessels in times of need.

Mid years: Norek takes off as a place of trade. Great shipping companies maintain offices and warehouses, and the city flourishes. They take the opportunity in growth to lock down water sources, and increase the walls. Other large upgrades and additions are made.

Current: City enjoys continues growth, although strange weather has disrupted some trade, but that was only over a short period, new routes are employed and the city bristles with trade once again. Vorn bla bla bla, then Rhakhaan bla bla bla wanted to add the jewel of Norek to their fancy crowns, and now U-lyshaak bla bla bla. There are monsters to the West (Ly-aran) and pirates to the south.

Then when the King of U-lyshaak confiscates most of their war ships to bolster his own lack of forces on that side of his country, but wait! Vorn is all arrogant and doesn't want to give up territory, so Norek can push back the Kings request till Vorn is dealt with.

Current: U-Lyshaak: The king is faced with a battle on many sides, half his kingdom is held by Vorn, Saralis is rattling sabres, Ly-aran is a land held by monsters and Rhakhaan has forces and territory held by citizens of Rhakhaan. U-lyshaak needs money, and the King begins to weight his options. Rhakhaan would be more then willing to fund his rebuilding, but there would be strings, Norek would lend with a pledge of rights, meaning they are exempt from the Kingdom, but he needs their tax. The young king levels his gaze at Sel Kay... possibly his only reasonable option.  Rhakhaan dispatches negotiators to disrupt the conversations being had by Sel Kay's elite and the nobles of U-Lyshak. Merchants of Sel Kay are not easily swayed from Profit. Negotiations go well.

Back in U-Lyshaak, The Sorcerer King Remiraith offers 1000 volunteers to aid in bolstering the kingdom in its infancy. He also offers advisers, and Seers. Rhakhaan fumes at the goings on in Sel kay and the Elves, offer the lift tariffs and bolster regiments in that area to help protect the Northern and eastern flanks, the crown offers some dangerous challenges to Rhakhaan, so the decided to go a more passive route. They continue to maintain roads, and fortifications within their territory. 

When my party gets to U-Lyshaak, they will be greeted with Wanted posters. The Kingdom is offering 2 bps for each pirate captured alive. Lugroki scalps are worth 5 bps. Pirate vessels are worth 10 gps. Those pirates that can be proven to be of Ulor are worth 5bps each. Ships proven to be of Ulor are worth 15 gps.


Just some of the stuff I am going on. Most of my notes are sitting beside my pile of books at home. So this is just some ideas of what is happening in my game.

[egdcltd]

There was a website with Lethys, who ever did it put in a metric tonne of work. I may have it backed up somewhere, maybe...

There was a Lethys map and details supposedly uploaded to the Vault, although I can't find it. If not, I do have a copy.

[Elrik]

Holy crap! I found it!

Thanks egdcltd, I remember it being in the download list before too. Do you have the lethys2.jpg image? Mine is pooched. It also looks like his website is down

Anyone know Martin Joabsson? I would like to clean up the page and repackage it but want his go ahead....

egdcltd, can your send you copy to me please? ( elrikthebastard@gmail.com )I will take a easy bet that your copy is probably better then mine. If Martin is on the list I would like to rework your information and just clean it up a bit... all xhtml.... (I don't want credit, I just want it to work for everyone)

Thanks!