Topic: Tough Hide & Armor

[Pat]

Pat,

Ahh... Are you talking about adjustments due to hit location?
I thought you were talking about the armor adjustments to hits, bleeding, and stun.

I have never used the adjustments due to location (from H&S or ML). I need to look at my books to be sure we are talking about two different things, but, alas, I am at work right now

Hi,

Yes I was talking about Armour adjustments from ML (p 62). I only mentioned the concussion hit damage though in my post and not stun, bleed etc for brevity. We do use hit locations though as per the ML critical tables for arms, legs etc..

As an example of what I was talking about though...The slash critical for Hands and Arms (61-70) has the critical chopping off a finger but, if you have plate mail adjustments, you take no concussion damage or any other due to the plate. (We all found that pretty strange and was an example of why we reduced the benefits and penalties of Armour Adjustments)

[Pat]

My point of view is that armor and tough hide both act in the way of a weapon trying to reach your inside, they should stack. If a weapon succeed in going through a piece of armor, then it will have to go through that hard skin before dealing significant damage.
So the same blow delivered to a Nagazi will have less impact upon his health than on a Human because his organs are better shielded by his tough hide.

Exactly what I was going to say.

To be honest, from a logical stand point I agree with both of you. Yes I believe that if a Nagazi was wearing armour and got hit his tough hide would provide better protection than a humans skin.

But, I'm not trying to preserve the logic of a situation, I'm trying to limit what I see as a threat to game play and game balance.

My argument is simply that things such as Tough Hide stacking with armour, Mage armour (or others) stacking with armour, Mage armour stacking with Chi Defence will cause an imbalance within HARP. The way I see it is these things are allowed to happen, next you'll want Warrior Mages with wall shields being able to cast wall shield as a spell and getting a further +40 DB.

I just feel that, if these things happen, PC's will quickly out strip monsters and even a Dragon's fearsome 190 lvl 25 OB will be pathetic compared to the armoured, tough hided, blade turning, masterworked, alloyed, mage armoured, boost quickened, blurred, battle runed, hasted, dirty fighting PC that will only be challenged by the Gods themselves.

At least, that's my GM nightmare.

[Right Wing Wacko]

Pat,

Ahh... Are you talking about adjustments due to hit location?
I thought you were talking about the armor adjustments to hits, bleeding, and stun.

I have never used the adjustments due to location (from H&S or ML). I need to look at my books to be sure we are talking about two different things, but, alas, I am at work right now

Hi,

Yes I was talking about Armour adjustments from ML (p 62). I only mentioned the concussion hit damage though in my post and not stun, bleed etc for brevity. We do use hit locations though as per the ML critical tables for arms, legs etc..

As an example of what I was talking about though...The slash critical for Hands and Arms (61-70) has the critical chopping off a finger but, if you have plate mail adjustments, you take no concussion damage or any other due to the plate. (We all found that pretty strange and was an example of why we reduced the benefits and penalties of Armour Adjustments)

Hmmm....
I think that is a point that needs attention. Actually, I like Arms Law the best and have been using that...although I have played ML and H&S. I just never looked very hard at the points you make.
How do you intend to adjudicate this?
I would be interested in a solution if you come up with one...

[Pat]

Hmmm....
I think that is a point that needs attention. Actually, I like Arms Law the best and have been using that...although I have played ML and H&S. I just never looked very hard at the points you make.
How do you intend to adjudicate this?
I would be interested in a solution if you come up with one...

Our solution was to re-write the damage adjustment chart. Since the effects of armour are now a difference of 10 between plate and unarmoured instead of 20, the damage was now: 4H  -5 modifier for a plate mail character. (And yes, we made changes to stun, bleed and modifiers)

We also increased damage to the head, neck area since it seemed strange that this area would take significantly less damage than other parts of the body. (We increased head damage to be comparable to the Hands/Arms damage.)

[masque1223]

To be honest, from a logical stand point I agree with both of you. Yes I believe that if a Nagazi was wearing armour and got hit his tough hide would provide better protection than a humans skin.

But, I'm not trying to preserve the logic of a situation, I'm trying to limit what I see as a threat to game play and game balance.

My argument is simply that things such as Tough Hide stacking with armour, Mage armour (or others) stacking with armour, Mage armour stacking with Chi Defence will cause an imbalance within HARP. The way I see it is these things are allowed to happen, next you'll want Warrior Mages with wall shields being able to cast wall shield as a spell and getting a further +40 DB.

I just feel that, if these things happen, PC's will quickly out strip monsters and even a Dragon's fearsome 190 lvl 25 OB will be pathetic compared to the armoured, tough hided, blade turning, masterworked, alloyed, mage armoured, boost quickened, blurred, battle runed, hasted, dirty fighting PC that will only be challenged by the Gods themselves.

At least, that's my GM nightmare.

The logic of the situation is important to both me, AND my players.  My players aren't munchkins.  If I had a player trying to munchkin the rules the way you describe, he wouldn't stay around too long, because I have no tolerance for that kind of behavior.  So I'm not going to worry about it, the rules as written and with the interpretations I've previously mentioned work just fine for us.  My suggestion would be that if you do end up with players that focused on min-maxing in practice, rather than theory, find better players.

[Right Wing Wacko]

Our solution was to re-write the damage adjustment chart. Since the effects of armour are now a difference of 10 between plate and unarmoured instead of 20, the damage was now: 4H  -5 modifier for a plate mail character. (And yes, we made changes to stun, bleed and modifiers)

We also increased damage to the head, neck area since it seemed strange that this area would take significantly less damage than other parts of the body. (We increased head damage to be comparable to the Hands/Arms damage.)

Interesting... how did you come up with the new numbers?
Did you use some kind of "formula" or standard "conversion"?
Could you possibly share what you have with me?

Thanks!

[Pat]

Our solution was to re-write the damage adjustment chart. Since the effects of armour are now a difference of 10 between plate and unarmoured instead of 20, the damage was now: 4H  -5 modifier for a plate mail character. (And yes, we made changes to stun, bleed and modifiers)

We also increased damage to the head, neck area since it seemed strange that this area would take significantly less damage than other parts of the body. (We increased head damage to be comparable to the Hands/Arms damage.)

Interesting... how did you come up with the new numbers?
Did you use some kind of "formula" or standard "conversion"?
Could you possibly share what you have with me?

Thanks!

Sure....Basically the formula we made was this:

No Armour +5H  +1 Stun +1 Bleed  +10M
Soft Leather +3H  +1 Bleed  +5M
Rigid Leather (as per ML)
Chain Mail -3H  -1 Stun  -5M
Plate  -5H  -1 Stun  -1 Bleed  -10M

Plate/Chain we cheated. We made Plate in area 4-7 (chest, back etc) and Chain modifications elsewhere. (Hands, legs, head etc)

And, since we use hit location, any piece meal armour is whatever is at the location. (You have plate gauntlets? Hit location Hands: Plate mod, You have a chain Gorget? Hit location neck: Chain mod etc)

Death in x rounds became:
No armour rounds -4
Soft Leather rounds -2
Rigid normal
Chain rounds +2
Plate rounds +4

(We ruled a 120 instant death was still instant death. No additional rounds applied.)

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to (Rasyr may want to offer his input here) but I can email you the excel spread sheets created for this. (The location and damage adjustments are all next to the description so that you don't need to calcualte adjustments.)

[jasonbrisbane]

Pat,
I was going to rebute all your arguments with my own but  your simply wrong on so many levels that I can see this forum being locked and closed...

We will simply have to agree to disagree. 


You'd better prepare for a HUGE culture shock when I become GM....

[Pat]

Pat,
I was going to rebute all your arguments with my own but  your simply wrong on so many levels that I can see this forum being locked and closed...

I don't have a problem with being disagreed with, please feel free to put forward any rebutal you see fit (I promise I won't take any offence.)

You'd better prepare for a HUGE culture shock when I become GM....

I konw we're playing with "disposable" characters during your next adventure but please remember that our main characters and adventures are played with house rulings that all players agree with, including yourself. All Gm's are required to use rules that are agreed to by all so that characters do not need to be chopped and changed between adventures so, when you're the Gm for our main characters, the culture shock should be minimal.

[Pat]

We will simply have to agree to disagree. 

No I can't agree to that   

[Right Wing Wacko]

Sure....Basically the formula we made was this:

No Armour +5H  +1 Stun +1 Bleed  +10M
Soft Leather +3H  +1 Bleed  +5M
Rigid Leather (as per ML)
Chain Mail -3H  -1 Stun  -5M
Plate  -5H  -1 Stun  -1 Bleed  -10M

Plate/Chain we cheated. We made Plate in area 4-7 (chest, back etc) and Chain modifications elsewhere. (Hands, legs, head etc)

And, since we use hit location, any piece meal armour is whatever is at the location. (You have plate gauntlets? Hit location Hands: Plate mod, You have a chain Gorget? Hit location neck: Chain mod etc)

Death in x rounds became:
No armour rounds -4
Soft Leather rounds -2
Rigid normal
Chain rounds +2
Plate rounds +4

(We ruled a 120 instant death was still instant death. No additional rounds applied.)

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to (Rasyr may want to offer his input here) but I can email you the excel spread sheets created for this. (The location and damage adjustments are all next to the description so that you don't need to calcualte adjustments.)

Hey thanks man!
I don't think Rasyr will have a problem with it, I don't see how it could be breaking any "rules", but if you want to wait for his input, that is perfectly fine. Not sure if he will poke into this thread or not, but he does answer private messages and/or e-mails in a timely manner...
My e-mail address should be linked to my screen name. Otherwise, PM me if you can't find my e-mail address...

And again, thanks!

[Right Wing Wacko]

Pat,
I was going to rebute all your arguments with my own but  your simply wrong on so many levels that I can see this forum being locked and closed...

Could you please explain how Pat is wrong on so many levels? I am genuinly curious because the issues he brings up I also see as a "problem"...

Also, there doesn't seem to be any animosity or flaming here, so why would the thread be locked?

[Pat]

Could you please explain how Pat is wrong on so many levels? I am genuinly curious because the issues he brings up I also see as a "problem"...

Really Jason, Masque 1 and others don't need to put forward arguements to support their position. All that really needs to be said is "My vision of HARP is to have Natural Armour stack/not stack (strike out whichever does not apply) with Armour." And that's it. All the arguements, including (and especially) mine, are justifications of our own HARP vision.

I respect all the other points of view posted (as I hope they do mine) but they will not change anyone's stance if their mind is already made up. The only people who may be swayed in this debate are those who have not formed a conclusion or are trying to find their own HARP vision.  

[Fidoric]

That is true wisdom, Pat.
And this is very Harpish too, as it is a game specifically designed to be tweaked as needed.