Topic: Teaser Spoiler--Let your players be your guide.

[Defendi]

(click to show/hide)

I think that I should give out a general bit of advice.  I've been doing this subconsciously the entire playtest, but I only JUST NOW realized it.  Last Monday my players got into a huge theological debate over the way the world had changed since they were in Heaven and for the most part I tried to stay out of it, just putting in my .02 when a player said something that I believed was contrary to information Gleann had given his character.

Anyway, my realization was this.  I've never said much about what Heaven was REALLY like.  I have barely touched on the true religion of Heaven, concentrating more on fights a just the slightest hint of Georgraphy.  I believe I did this on purpose, subconsciously, because each time I've started to violate this in a teaser, I've felt like it was a bad idea and cut it.  The reason in hindsight is simple.  I shouldn't be telling anyone what Heaven is really like, on a fundamental level.

I'll fill in details, like the fact that the Dwarves had to relearn metalurgy, so the metals must have been easier to work with.  Hell is to the south.  Things have gotten less pure even among the faithful.  But all the real baselines the players invent themselves.  They incorporate their own doctrine and beliefs and they create the Heavenly church THEY WANT.  They do it even as they argue and debate.

Anyway, the point of this is that it's never made it into a teaser, and it's probably too late now.  But that's my advice.  Being from Heaven is about wish fullfillment and people creating a paradise that feels right to them.  When players do that, don't step on them. 

Anyway, I thought I should jot that down while the thought was fresh.  I spoilered this in case people have e-mail notification on.  Since there's spoiler in the title, you should be able to talk freely if you feel like replying.

My groups are all very similar in religion though.  I'm curious how this play out in more cosmopoltan locales.

[markc]

  I agree this can be a very sticky subject in any game system especially you type of game world. I might attach this note to each of your products or to your website for future sales and questions.
  Maybe Heaven is in the eyes of the beholder, you see a orange tree I see a apple tree type stuff but we both see the buildings and houses.

MDC

PS You should not make me think so hard on Tax Day.

[mocking bird]

Hmmm, playing around with skill descriptions could be a little problematic depending on how the characters were built initially.  For instance if metals work different I could very well see that spells & mana would also be significantly different.

Also depending on how contradictory the info was, it could be easily explained by each remembering things differently.  The characters went through a very traumatic event.  Their perceptions could have been altered after the event, by the event or might have been slightly different all along. 

One thing that you could throw at your players is does their mortal, current, body match their Heavenly one?  Along those lines do the other characters still look the same or look different?  If the latter, how do you still know they are them?  How you answer these questions could have a lot to do with the rest of them.

Along these lines as you hint at the early churches were set up by people such as the party who had lived in both realms.  Since there is disagreement with who led the Sundering each apparently saw things differently.  What would really be odd is that the party may have been the last ones to see the Prophets.  Likewise it is hinted at that each racial church has its own scripture - Dulandak vs Carsidius that are quoted inside the front covers for example.  So the party themselves might appear in Scripture...but that might get a little strange...

[Defendi]

With the exception of skills like region lore, I let them readjust their skill with a little reasonable study and no cost.  For instance, characters who have craft that were able to study blacksmithing could apply their skill ranks to their new realities.

[mocking bird]

Along these lines - did they have rune metal in Heaven?

[Defendi]

Sure, why not.    I usually just assume the same metals were there, they were just Heavenly versions that were easier to work, whether because of their nature or because of heavenly magics.  Pre-Sundaring Heaven is pretty wide open, though.  Other than the trip into Hell outlined in the teasers, it's mostly undefined.

[mocking bird]

I was thinking along the lines that the metals were somehow 'blessed' or something along those lines in gratitude for dwarves.  It is kind of hinted at in Unhallowed ground as it resists evil.  If you go with this thought it also opens up the concept of holy trees and such for the Atavists.

[Defendi]

Well, they CAN be holy.  So can trees.

[Elton Robb]

  I agree this can be a very sticky subject in any game system especially you type of game world. I might attach this note to each of your products or to your website for future sales and questions.
  Maybe Heaven is in the eyes of the beholder, you see a orange tree I see a apple tree type stuff but we both see the buildings and houses.

MDC

PS You should not make me think so hard on Tax Day.

Mark.

PAY YOUR PROPERTY TAXES!

[markc]

Elton,
 Thanks

MDC

[Grafton]

I have a player making a RM2 Sage character and, of course, has many region lores, anthropologies, and languages. I'm not sure how to handle this if I run the first teaser, especially the 3 region lores. I don't want to cheat him out of potentially useful skills based on 10,000 year old information from what is essentially a different world.

I admit that initially I liked the idea of the teasers, but now I start thinking they would "get in the way" of the actual adventures. It seems maybe using the first teaser would be good, then maybe sticking to the adventures...

[Defendi]

(click to show/hide)

If you do the first one, you've already encountered about every problem they cause.  I'd recommend doing the rest.  It might be just me, but I think they get VERY cool around product 6, and then crank up in intensity until 10, which looks like it will essentially be half teaser.

As for all the region lores, I'd probably let him change them over with a little time once the teaser is over.  The geography is pretty similar, if he coincidentaly studied the lands of Heaven which are analog to Belkanath.  Same with the languages (though no analogues, I'd just let him learn Ludremonian or whatever he wants very quickly, etc).  I'm not sure how you have multiple anthropologies. 

Send me a PM if you need to talk in depth.

[Unwise]

Sorry to necro post, but the last two posts here brough up some good questions for me.

(click to show/hide)

Firstly, in Grafton's post, it would see, you could bend realism by letting the sage learn to apply those skills very very quickly. In the alternative though, why not have the sage as a/the guy that meets the characters that came from heaven? He is from the mortal world and a very well read and respected religious scholar, who read a prophesy that a gift from heaven would arrive there and then.

In the old Curse of Kabis campaign I let our bard who had very high lore skills have an edited printout of the campaign background including geography, politics, language, economy etc. So any questions PCs had they could ask their learned colleague.

(click to show/hide)

@Defendi - This has probably been asked alot, but what effect would it have on the campaign and teasers if one or more characters is not from heaven? You mention in the campaigns that the characters may or may not have the divine spark, so I assume you have allowed for some dying and being replaced. It would be pretty odd to have another person come from heaven everytime a character dies.

For example, if in the first adventure two PCs die. They are replaced by local mortal people. What do I do with the following teaser? Have they got to play their old character who is now dead? They won't have much attachment to them so that does not sound like much fun. How about later in the campaign? What if none of the players are now from heaven due to attrition? What if half of them are?

In my last campaign that spanned 3-4 years, each player went through 3 or 4 characters on average, they generally died off slowly enough that the quest continued without a hickup, but by the end, the group that finished the quest, did not even know anyone who knew anyone who started it. That suited that campaign well, but I wonder how that works in Echoes.

[Defendi]

(click to show/hide)

Any character not from Heaven can't be in the teasers.  When characters die or new people join, I usually just run a prelude with them that leads up to another fight near prophets (note that in the first adventure, the players aren't guarding the only path to the prophets)  Most people like to play their original characters in the Teaser for nostalgia reasons, but if they don't want to, their new characters would have been in Heaven too.

[Unwise]

Thanks for clearing that up. What effect would a

(click to show/hide)

character not from heaven have upon the rest of the campaign (other than the teasers)? Since I cannot be sure what direction it is headed, I need to know if I am likely to stuff anything up by adding in characters that are terrestrial in nature. My main concern is that the character does not feel to be integral to the unraveling plot. In the alternative, are we to believe that it is not overly uncommon for people to appear from heaven recently? If so would it be consistent with the setting to have the players meet NPCs who are from heaven too? If so did they have to be near the ritual/explosion when it happened?

[Defendi]

(click to show/hide)

With my players, I wouldn't mix the party, just because it would be such an exclusion.  Your players might be different.  If you do the teasers, though, they become a REALLY big deal by the end, so they'd be out of that too.  No on knows of anyone from Heaven showing up before (aside from after the Sundering, of course).