Topic: Wep DP vs Spell List DP

[markc]

 Being away from the ICE Forum for a time gave me some time to think about some things one of which was why do professions have different weapon DP costs but every profession essentially has the same DP costs for spell list?
 Would not the game be more fun with an essence profession that had a bit cheaper DP cost for weapons but a slightly higher cost for open and closed spell lists than other essence casters?
 What about also the idea of a profession that had normal DP costs for base lists but higher costs for open and closed lists?
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[jdale]

Being away from the ICE Forum for a time gave me some time to think about some things one of which was why do professions have different weapon DP costs but every profession essentially has the same DP costs for spell list?
 Would not the game be more fun with an essence profession that had a bit cheaper DP cost for weapons but a slightly higher cost for open and closed spell lists than other essence casters?

That exists -- for the semis. Their base list and weapon skill costs vary. It also exists for the Arms characters, e.g. Scholar is the Arms character with the lowest spell list cost and highest weapon cost.

It only doesn't exist for the pure and hybrid casters. I think that makes sense, because by definition the pure and hybrid casters will be putting their primary focus on spell lists, and a small increase in that cost will hit them extremely hard. A slightly decreased weapon cost will not in any way balance out that increase.

[Cory Magel]

jdale, you're talking RMU right?  markc, are you asking about RMSS/RMRP or RMU?  (This is not the RMU forum).

All Pure Casters have a set of costs, all Hybrid Casters have a set of costs, all Semi Casters have a set of costs, and each Pure Arms user have different costs.  In addition, Channeling and Mentalism professions have better weapon costs than Essence ones.

To put it shortly, it's a balancing act that incorporates things like spell theme access (i.e. Essence gets no healing, Mentalism is all 'self' and single targets, Channeling doesn't have any real stealth ability other than from undead, etc, etc.) access to armor, and so on.

[markc]

I am asking about RMSS and not RMU. A couple of my old players contacted me about RMU b2 and what they liked and did not like and asked me for some input on some stuff. While I was looking at various things (and I suspect the fact that me nephew just turned 3 and found the "Why?" word) had be begun to question some things.


I understand that it sort of lumps all semi and pure spell users into a vague group that defines their costs for spells by that broad category, ie non, semi, pure, hybrid. It is only the non's that get variable open/closed list costs based on profession all of the others are basically copy's of one another.


So in general I was thinking that it would be nice to have the possibility of 3 paladins (ie one more arms driven (besides their base lists), one standard and one more magic oriented.


I need to look at the RMU b2-1 update before I made any blanket statements but in general the RMU rules reduced too much one area that I really like, the skill system as well as added some complexity in combat that I am not so sure about.
 So in general I am back at looking to merge the RMSS/SM:P skill sets and some other general ideas for some of my old group.
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[Cory Magel]

If you want to simplify the skills in RMSS you can always just do away with the category and increase the progression of the individual skills from 3/2/1/1 to 5/3/1/1.  It'll have the effect of gaining quicker in individual skills, but it wouldn't dramatically change balance because you wouldn't be getting broader category bonuses anymore.  Just take the stat bonuses from applying to the category and move them to the individual skills.  That'll take a little work, but not much.

Essentially RMU just broke that up into categories then implemented a similar skill type rule, basically taking the RM2 way, but then stacking a new mechanic on top of that for similar skills.  In my opinion all that did was complicate the base system... I think it should have been left alone or do what has been done, but without the similar skill rule, that should have been a later add-on and not included in the core rulebook.  Categories essentially are a similar skill system when you think about it.  You buy into the category and all the related skills get a smaller boost than individual purchasing provides.  For some reason a lot of people don't understand that.  It's doing what a good number of RM2 users did by implementing a similar skill rule.  Although, I can understand those who didn't want to use a similar skill rule not liking it.

So with the RMSS/SM:P thing I guess it depends on what you're trying to do.  Getting rid of categories might help with whatever it is.  I've never tried to combine the skills of the two.  Even in situations where we have a character using both systems we'd essentially just create two separate skill sets for the character.

On the combat side, RMU B2 is better than B1 (which was even more complex), but I agree it adds complexity without adding any real substance.  There's a simplicity in having a Snap, Normal, and Deliberate without having to worry about your percentage of activity.  It simulated how hastily you did something rather than how much time it took to do it.  Obviously with RMU someone was more concerned with trying to measure linear time rather than the slightly more abstracted RMSS round.  Trying to meter it by actual time raises more issues than it solves and complicates it at the same time imo.  Using the RMSS round, if you have a terrible initiative, you can try to make a snap action at a set penalty without having to monkey around with action points or percentages.  RMU kind of does the same thing, but in a slightly more complex manner.  It's not a huge change in complexity, but rather just another small shift that stacks up over time.

[markc]

I think right now I am only removing/combining about 6 skills and renaming a couple of more so it is not a huge change. ie tracking and reading tracks combined, remove situation awareness, rename sense ambush to negate ambush; are the ones that come to mind right now.
The other change is move medical skills into a tech/trade med category like in SM:P.
Otherwise right now most things are the same besides adding a 4th stat to skills and having categories add the two stats and the two stats for the skills are divided and changing that you need 100 to succeed at a task but receive a -10 to you check if you do not take 2 rounds (its the same but you receive a bonus now of +10 if you take 2 rounds).


In the past I have posted to them ideas in changing the skill progression so the bonus would be for zero ranks/first 5 ranks/next 5 ranks/next 10 ranks/next 10 ranks/ next 20 ranks/next 20 ranks/next 40 ranks/etc. And also ideas on changing both the category and skill bonus per rank. Both ideas as you can imagine change how many "ranks" you basically need to be "skilled" enough to attempt average tasks.


They have also asked for some ideas on re-doing the rules from the MAC to expand the styles to more of 30 point/30 point/40 point system (maybe easy/normal/hard) and some ideas on new abilities.


I think that is about it besides the crazy discussions about more professions and or altering professions (like the idea above), changing spell lists to include 1-3 basic spells for ranks 1-5 then single spells after that (sort of a cantrip idea) and or having cantrips for the first 5 ranks and all other spells PP cost is 5 PP less.


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[Cory Magel]

The Tracking vs. Reading Tracks thing has always been a struggle for me.  Realistically you could track something without having any idea what it is.  A deer running through the forest is going to do all the things another creature might (break branches and indicators other than 'prints'), all you'd know it you're following a hooved creature.  Reading Tracks could then be what gives you all the information OTHER than actually just following some unknown target.  What exactly it is (maybe it's not a dear, but a demon), how much it weighs, how fast it's moving, etc.

But for simplicity sake I like them being one skill.  I think if a player is going to invest in a skill like that it's better to simplify and reward the non-combat oriented skills.  I think Stalking and Hiding fall into the same category for me.

Situational awareness is one of those things that I like to combine skills to accomplish.  Instead of having "Situational Awareness: Specific Situation" I would combine the generic "Awareness" skill with one that relates to the situation.  So, combat for example... I'd take a combat skill total and a general awareness skill and average them.  Situational awareness like this has a decent impact on my rules for if you see something occurring (which is important for casters trying to deflect attacks for example).  If you're specifically announcing you're paying attention to something I'd often be good with that, but if something is happening that you wouldn't automatically pick up on, but might spot, you'll need to make a roll.

I love what the Martial Arts Companion did for RMSS.  The material that come out of it, and inspired other material (I think I've sent you some of my combat weapon specialization stuff in the past) had an impact on Pure Arms Users as a whole in my house rules.

[markc]

I have combined sit awar and profession skills.
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