Topic: Treating Languages like Weapon Groups in HARP

[pyrotech]

Hey all,

Phillip's article in the new Guild Companion has got me to thinking again on fantasy languages and using them in games. 

In my experience you need to walk a fine line between practicality for your players and minimizing the need to suspend disbelief when dealing with languages in a game.  I like the idea of reducing the common tongue, but with a diverse group of adventurers this can cause a lot of problems.

Has anyone worked with the idea of using languages much like weapon groups are?  Most RL languages can be classified in groups of closely related languages.  Austrian and German are extremely close, and I get the impression than Sweedish and Norwegian are not too far off either.  And all of these together with English, Finnish, Danish, and Dutch are roughly similar.  Likewise you have the romantic languages in a separate category.

So a German speaker could speak Austrian at -10, or stumble along with English at 1/4 German skill or +25 whichever is less.

Applying this to fantasy would simply require defining similar languages groups and categories. 

Has anyone tried this with any success?

-Pyrotech

[dagorhir]

That's where I'm headed in my setting, but I'm not there yet. My next game will be using the family of a language instead of the specific languages, with one exception.

My goal is to have several languages, just like in the real world, grouped in families. My idea is to have a correspondence between languages of the same family which will give the equivalent number of ranks.

I still have a lot of work before I get there, but when I do, I'll you all know how well it works.

[Thom @ ICE]

Interesting concept... I like it, and it is not far off from some other stuff I'm playing with so if you like this idea, I think you'll like the other things I am working on.

[Warborn]

Different system I know, but Cyberpunk did something similar with their languages, Each base or parent language had sub languages that fell underneath it. Being fluent in the parent language made it to where you were able to understand and speak the sub languages but with a big decrease in fluency. 

The way I figure it, when I was in Germany I spoke high German. Every region had their own dialect, Bavaria being especially different, and while the base language was the same it took me a minute or two sometimes to translate what was being said to me. 

[dagorhir]

 don't know Cyberpunk, what you described is exactly what I want to replicate, eventually.

[Cory Magel]

I've always thought the way languages are setup in RM is actually slightly different that what is realistic, but it just hasn't been a big enough deal to bother with.

Basically I was thinking certain groups of languages would be covered by a category (say "Elvish") then the sub languages would break down to Wood Elf, Grey Elf, High Elf, etc.  Basically think of it as Latin or 'Romance' languages would be the category for: French, Italian, Spanish, etc.  Germanic would cover Russian, German, Polish, etc.  That way learning a rank in a category wouldn't give you +2 in both Kobold and Common.

But than, I'm talking about RM in the HARP thread... still, you get the idea.

[dagorhir]

I've always thought the way languages are setup in RM is actually slightly different that what is realistic, but it just hasn't been a big enough deal to bother with.

Basically I was thinking certain groups of languages would be covered by a category (say "Elvish") then the sub languages would break down to Wood Elf, Grey Elf, High Elf, etc.  Basically think of it as Latin or 'Romance' languages would be the category for: French, Italian, Spanish, etc.  Germanic would cover Russian, German, Polish, etc.  That way learning a rank in a category wouldn't give you +2 in both Kobold and Common.

But than, I'm talking about RM in the HARP thread... still, you get the idea.

That is exactly how I handled it in RM.

[Ynglaur]

I like this idea a lot, though using RMU I think I'd just use the Similar Skills rules instead.  Great idea, though.

[Pat]

We tried this early on in our HARP campaigns and, since the characters all were different races, we decided that unless there was a common language the PC's couldn't talk. This caused some fun trying to get meanings from limited conversations or discussing strategy in combat etc but after 1 level all PC's took ranks in a defined common language so it didn't really become an issue. We found that languages didn't affect the party much after this and was only really used when the GM wanted to introduce a scroll or NPC in an adventure as a trap or plot point.

[Falenthal]

We tried this early on in our HARP campaigns and, since the characters all were different races, we decided that unless there was a common language the PC's couldn't talk. This caused some fun trying to get meanings from limited conversations or discussing strategy in combat etc but after 1 level all PC's took ranks in a defined common language so it didn't really become an issue. We found that languages didn't affect the party much after this and was only really used when the GM wanted to introduce a scroll or NPC in an adventure as a trap or plot point.

The same for me here.
Certain cultures in my campaign have few cultural points in the common language. Mostly this are reclusive and wild cultures, of course. Those players normally spent some of their initial points to improve it.
After that, language is interesting when, as GM, I want to introduce a certain character who has information but doesn't speak common tongue (or isn't very fluent and his words lead to confusion), or a certain writing the characters have to bring to someone else to translate, etc.

But the idea of certain languages being related and, as by weapons, be treated with a -20 to the skill, is interesting.
I'm spanish and I can say that I can speak with italian and portuguese people fairly well, although I haven't studied a word from their language. But I can't have a minumum conversation with a french person, spanish and french are too different.
This can be added in the world campaign. Maybe not every language is related to others, but some of them may form groups.

[GrumpyOldFart]

Parties in my setting haven't ranged widely enough for language families to matter yet. Zharpuin pretty much stands in as "common tongue" because it is overloaded with concepts and slang terms from 2 elven languages, a dwarf language, 3 different orc tribal tongues and half a dozen human ones. "The Zharpuin Oligarchies" are primarily populated by humans and human/elf crosses.

And yes, we still sometimes have communications issues. But that's okay, that's just another source of story hooks.

[pyrotech]

Well I've taken my basic idea and ran with it a bit.  It has mutated away from my original idea to a more complex one.  I'm not sure that is a good idea for HARP where a key design concept is to keep things geared towards High Adventure.  But this structure seemed more consistent with the history of languages for my setting.  I've applied this to the 41 or so major languages in my current setting, and I figured I could share it here and see what people think. 

This is a first draft and I may buckle down and simplify it dramatically depending on what my regular players think.

The formatting for this post is pretty wonkey - it is coming from a 3 column 41 row table to this.  So I believe it shows:

Language Name
Defaults from Languages
Defaults to Languages

I'll try to straighten it up and repost it later if people are interested.

(click to show/hide)

Language                Defaults to:            Grants Bonus to:

Infernal
¼ Fiendish
¼ Fiendish, Rank bonus to Fomoric, Trollish, Thulian, Low Stygian

Primal
¼ Formic, ¼ High Draconic, ¼ High Sylvan, Rank Bonus from Low Draconic
¼ Formic, ¼ High Draconic, ¼ High Sylvan, Rank bonus to Merish, Low Draconic, Low Sylvan

Celestial
¼ Minotian, ¼ Medusan, ¼ Ogre, Rank Bonus from Low Giantish
¼ Minotian, ¼ Medusan, ¼ Ogre, Rank bonus to Old Humanic, Thulian, Low Giantish

Old Stygian
¼ High Stygian
¼ High Stygian, Rank Bonus to Low Stygian

Fiendish
¼ Infernal, ¼ Trollish
¼ Infernal, ¼ Trollish

Trollish
¼ Fiendish
Rank Bonus to Infernal

Fomoric
¼ Primal, ¼ Merish, Rank Bonus from Infernal
¼ Primal, ¼ Merish

Merish
¼ Fomoric
Rank Bonus to Primal

High Draconic
¼ Primal, ¼ High Sylvan Closely Related to Low Draconic
Closely Related to Low Draconic, ¼ Primal, ¼ High Sylvan

Low Draconic
Closely Related to High Draconic, Rank Bonus from Primal
Closely Related to High Draconic, Rank Bonus to Primal

High Stygian
¼ Old Stygian, ¼ Low Stygian
¼ Old Stygian, ¼ High Stygian

Low Stygian
¼ High Stygian, Rank Bonus from Infernal
¼ High Stygian, Rank Bonus to Old Stygian

Ogre
¼ Celestial, ¼ Low Giantish, Rank Bonus from High Giantish
¼ Celestial, ¼ Low Giantish, Rank Bonus to High Giantish

Low Giantish
Closely Related to High Giantish, ¼ Ogre, Rank Bonus from Celestial
Closely Related to High Giantish, ¼ Ogre, Rank Bonus to Celestial

High Giantish
Closely Related to Low Giantish, Rank Bonus from Ogre
Closely Related to Low Giantish, Rank Bonus to Northman, Ogre

Medusan
¼ Celestial, ¼ Thulian, Closely Related to Minotian
¼ Celestial, ¼ Thulian, Closely Related to Minotian, Rank Bonus to Old Humanic

Thulian
¼ Medusan, Rank Bonus from Infernal, Minotian
¼ Medusan, Rank Bonus to Minotian

Minotian
¼ Celestial, ¼ Old Humanic
¼ Celestial, ¼ Old Humanic

Old Humanic
¼ Minotian, ¼ Northman, ¼ March Tongues
¼ Minotian, ¼ Northman, ¼ March Tongues

High Sylvan
Closely Related to Low Sylvan, ¼ Primal, ¼ Orcish, ¼ Goblin, ¼ Pact Halfling, ¼ Pact Gnomish, ¼ Pact Dwarven, ¼ Pact Elven, ¼ Hobgoblin, Rank Bonus from March Orcish, March Goblin, March Halfling, March Gnomish, March Dwarven, March Elven, Firbolgic
Closely Related to Low Sylvan, ¼ Primal, ¼ Orcish, ¼ Goblin, ¼ Pact Halfling, ¼ Pact Gnomish, ¼ Pact Dwarven, ¼ Pact Elven, ¼ Hobgoblin, Rank Bonus to March Orcish, March Goblin, March Halfling, March Gnomish, March Dwarven, March Elven, Firbolgic

March Tongues (various)
Closely Related March Trade Common, ¼ Old Humanic, ¼ Other March Tongue, ¼ Imperial Humanic, ¼ Keph
Closely Related March Trade Common, ¼ Old Humanic, ¼ Other March Tongue, ¼ Imperial Humanic, ¼ Keph

March Trade Common
Closely Related to March Tongues, Rank Bonus from Keph, Imperial Humanic
Closely Related to March Tongues, Rank Bonus to Keph, Imperial Humanic

March Orcish
Closely Related to Orcish  ¼ March Goblin, ¼ March Halfling, ¼ March Gnomish, ¼ March Dwarven, ¼ March Elven, Rank Bonus from Goblin, Pact Halfling, Pact Gnomish, Pact Dwarven, Pact Elven, Hobgoblin, Old Pact Common, High Sylvan, Firbolgic
Closely Related to Orcish, ¼ High Sylvan, ¼ March Goblin, ¼ March Halfling, ¼ March Gnomish, ¼ March Dwarven, ¼ March Elven, Rank Bonus to Goblin, Pact Halfling, Pact Gnomish, Pact Dwarven, Pact Elven, Hobgoblin, Old Pact Common, High Sylvan, Firbolgic

March Goblin
Closely Related to Pact Goblin, ¼ March Orcish, ¼ March Halfling, ¼ March Gnomish, ¼ March Dwarven, ¼ March Elven, Rank Bonus from Orcish, Pact Halfling, Pact Gnomish, Pact Dwarven, Pact Elven, Hobgoblin, Old Pact Common, HIgh Sylvan
Closely Related to Goblin, ¼ March Orcish, ¼ March Halfling, ¼ March Gnomish, ¼ March Dwarven, ¼ March Elven, Rank Bonus to Orcish, Pact Halfling, Pact Gnomish, Pact Dwarven, Pact Elven, Hobgoblin, Old Pact Common, High Sylvan

March Halfling
Closely Related to Pact Halfling, ¼ March Orcish, ¼ March Goblin, ¼ March Gnomish, ¼ March Dwarven, ¼ March Elven, Rank Bonus from Orcish, Goblin, Pact Gnomish, Pact Dwarven, Pact Elven, Hobgoblin, Old Pact Common, HIgh Sylvan
Closely Related to Pact Halfling, ¼ March Orcish, ¼ March Goblin, ¼ March Gnomish, ¼ March Dwarven, ¼ March Elven, Rank Bonus to Orcish, Goblin, Pact Gnomish, Pact Dwarven, Pact Elven, Hobgoblin, Old Pact Common, High Sylvan

March Gnomish
Closely Related to Pact Gnomish, ¼ March Orcish, ¼ March Halfling, ¼ March Goblin, ¼ March Dwarven, ¼ March Elven, Rank Bonus from Orcish, Pact Halfling, Goblin, Pact Dwarven, Pact Elven, Hobgoblin, Old Pact Common, High Sylvan
Closely Related to Pact Gnomish, ¼ March Orcish, ¼ March Halfling, ¼ March Goblin, ¼ March Dwarven, ¼ March Elven, Rank Bonus to Orcish, Pact Halfling, Goblin, Pact Dwarven, Pact Elven, Hobgoblin, Old Pact Common, High Sylvan

March Dwarven
Closely Related to Pact Dwarven, ¼ March Orcish, ¼ March Halfling, ¼ March Gnomish, ¼ March Goblin, ¼ March Elven, Rank Bonus from Orcish, Pact Halfling, Pact Gnomish, Goblin, Pact Elven, Hobgoblin, Old Pact Common, High Sylvan
Closely Related to Pact Dwarven, ¼ March Orcish, ¼ March Halfling, ¼ March Gnomish, ¼ March Goblin, ¼ March Elven, Rank Bonus to Orcish, Pact Halfling, Pact Gnomish, Goblin, Pact Elven, Hobgoblin, Old Pact Common, High Sylvan

Orcish
Closely Related to March Orcish, ¼ Old Pact Common, ¼ Firbolgic, ¼ High Sylvan, ¼ Goblin, ¼ Hobgoblin, ¼ Pact Halfling, ¼ Pact Gnomish, ¼ Pact Dwarven, ¼ Pact Elven Rank Bonus from March Goblin, March Halfling, March Gnomish, March Dwarven, March Elven, Low Sylvan
Closely Related to March Orcish, ¼ Old Pact Common, ¼ Firbolgic, ¼ High Sylvan, ¼ Goblin, ¼ Hobgoblin, ¼ Pact Halfling, ¼ Pact Gnomish, ¼ Pact Dwarven, ¼ Pact Elven Rank Bonus to March Goblin, March Halfling, March Gnomish, March Dwarven, March Elven, Low Sylvan

Goblin
Closely Related to March Goblin, Hobgoblin ¼ Old Pact Common,  ¼ High Sylvan, ¼ Orcish, ¼ Pact Halfling, ¼ Pact Gnomish, ¼ Pact Dwarven, ¼ Pact Elven Rank Bonus from March Halfling, March Gnomish, March Dwarven, March Elven, March Orcish, Low Sylvan
Closely Related to March Goblin, Hobgoblin ¼ Old Pact Common,  ¼ High Sylvan, ¼ Orcish, ¼ Pact Halfling, ¼ Pact Gnomish, ¼ Pact Dwarven, ¼ Pact Elven Rank Bonus from March Goblin, March Halfling, March Gnomish, March Dwarven, March Elven, March Orcish, Low Sylvan, Firbolgic

Pact Halfling (Hillish)
Closely Related to March Halfling, Old Pact Common,  ¼ High Sylvan, ¼ Orcish, ¼ Pact Gnomish, ¼ Pact Dwarven, ¼ Goblin, ¼ Hobgoblin, ¼ Pact Elven Rank Bonus from March Goblin, March Gnomish, March Dwarven, March Elven, March Orcish, Low Sylvan, ¼ Pact Common
Closely Related to March Halfling, ¼ Old Pact Common,  ¼ High Sylvan, ¼ Orcish, ¼ Pact Gnomish, ¼ Pact Dwarven, ¼ Goblin, ¼ Hobgoblin, ¼ Pact Elven Rank Bonus to March Goblin, March Gnomish, March Dwarven, March Elven, March Orcish, Low Sylvan, ¼ Pact Common

Pact Gnomish
Closely Related to March Gnomish, Old Pact Common,  ¼ High Sylvan, ¼ Orcish, ¼ Pact Halfling, ¼ Pact Dwarven, ¼ Goblin, ¼ Hobgoblin, ¼ Pact Elven Rank Bonus from March Goblin, March Halfling, March Dwarven, March Elven, March Orcish, Low Sylvan, ¼ Pact Common
Closely Related to March Gnomish, Old Pact Common,  ¼ High Sylvan, ¼ Orcish, ¼ Pact Halfling, ¼ Pact Dwarven, ¼ Goblin, ¼ Hobgoblin, ¼ Pact Elven Rank Bonus to March Goblin, March Halfling, March Dwarven, March Elven, March Orcish, Low Sylvan, ¼ Pact Common

Pact Dwarven
Closely Related to March Dwarven, Old Pact Common,  ¼ High Sylvan, ¼ Orcish, ¼ Pact Halfling, ¼ Pact Gnomish, ¼ Pact Elven Rank, ¼ Goblin, ¼ Hobgoblin Bonus from March Goblin, March Halfling, March Gnomish, March Elven, March Orcish, Low Sylvan, ¼ Pact Common
Closely Related to March Dwarven, Old Pact Common,  ¼ High Sylvan, ¼ Orcish, ¼ Pact Halfling, ¼ Pact Gnomish, ¼ Goblin, ¼ Hobgoblin, ¼ Pact Elven Rank Bonus to March Goblin, March Halfling, March Gnomish, March Elven, March Orcish, Low Sylvan, ¼ Pact Common

March Elven
Closely Related to Pact Elven, ¼ March Orcish, ¼ March Halfling, ¼ March Gnomish, ¼ March Dwarven, ¼ March Goblin, Rank Bonus from Orcish, Pact Halfling, Pact Gnomish, Pact Dwarven, Goblin, Hobgoblin, Old Pact Common
Closely Related to Pact Elven, ¼ March Orcish, ¼ March Halfling, ¼ March Gnomish, ¼ March Dwarven, ¼ March Goblin, Rank Bonus to Orcish, Pact Halfling, Pact Gnomish, Pact Dwarven, Goblin, Hobgoblin, Old Pact Common

Pact Elven
Closely Related to March Elven, Old Pact Common,  ¼ High Sylvan, ¼ Orcish, ¼ Pact Halfling, ¼ Pact Gnomish, ¼ Pact Dwarven, ¼ Goblin, ¼ Hobgoblin, Rank Bonus from March Goblin, March Halfling, March Gnomish, March Dwarven, March Orcish, Low Sylvan, ¼ Pact Common
Closely Related to March Elven, Old Pact Common,  ¼ High Sylvan, ¼ Orcish, ¼ Pact Halfling, ¼ Pact Gnomish, ¼ Pact Dwarven, ¼ Goblin, ¼ Hobgoblin, Rank Bonus to March Goblin, March Halfling, March Gnomish, March Dwarven, March Orcish, Low Sylvan, ¼ Pact Common

Old Pact Common
Closely Related to Pact Common, Hobgoblin, Pact Halfling, Pact Gnomish, Pact Dwarven, Pact Elven, ¼ Orchish, ¼ Goblin, Rank Bonus from March Orcish, March Goblin, March Halfling, March Gnomish, March Dwarven, March Elven
Closely Related to Pact Common, Hobgoblin, Pact Halfling, Pact Gnomish, Pact Dwarven, Pact Elven, ¼ Orchish, ¼ Goblin, Rank Bonus to March Orcish, March Goblin, March Halfling, March Gnomish, March Dwarven, March Elven

Pact Common
Closely Related to Old Pact Common, ¼ Hobgoblin, ¼ Pact Halfling, ¼ Pact Gnomish, ¼ Pact Dwarven, ¼ Pact Elven, Rank Bonus from Imperial Humanic
Closely Related to Old Pact Common, ¼ Hobgoblin, ¼ Pact Halfling, ¼ Pact Gnomish, ¼ Pact Dwarven, ¼ Pact Elven, Rank Bonus to Imperial Humanic

Keph
¼ March Tongues, ¼ Imperial Humanic
¼ March Tongue, ¼ Imperial Humanic

Low Sylvan
Closely Related to High Sylvan, Rank Bonus from Orcish, Goblin, Pact Halfling, Pact Gnomish, Pact Dwarven, Pact Elven
Closely Related to High Sylvan, Rank Bonus to Orcish, Goblin, Pact Halfling, Pact Gnomish, Pact Dwarven, Pact Elven

Firbolgic
¼ Orcish, Rank Bonus from March Orcish, Goblin
¼ Orchish, Rank Bonus to March Orcish

Imperial Humanic
¼ March Tongues, ¼ Keph, Rank Bonus from Old Pact Common, Pact Common
¼ March Tongue, ¼ Keph, Rank Bonus to Old Pact Common, Pact Common

Hobgoblin
Closely Related to Goblin, Old Pact Common,  ¼ High Sylvan, ¼ Orcish, ¼ Pact Halfling, ¼ Pact Gnomish, ¼ Pact Dwarven, ¼ Pact Elven, Rank Bonus from March Goblin, March Halfling, March Gnomish, March Dwarven, March Orcish, Low Sylvan, Pact Common
Closely Related to Goblin, Old Pact Common,  ¼ High Sylvan, ¼ Orcish, ¼ Pact Halfling, ¼ Pact Gnomish, ¼ Pact Dwarven, ¼ Pact Elven, Rank Bonus to March Goblin, March Halfling, March Gnomish, March Dwarven, March Orcish, Low Sylvan, Pact Common

No defaults from defaults

¼ Related Language (before stat modifiers, max +25) + stat modifiers

Rank Bonus - +1 to Influenced Language per Rank of Influencing Languages (max +10)

Closely Related Language -10

-Pyrotech

[pyrotech]

After re-reading my last post I realized I never really mentioned what I did different with the list I created from my original idea (which I still suspect would be simpler and cleaner - it just wouldn't reflect as many of the language similarities).

For that list I went through a timeline of major races through the settings history and mapped whose languages would influence whose. 

Very Similar (or Closely Related as I labeled them in my spreadsheet) languages would default to each other at the known language - 10.  I chose the trade commons to be closely related to all their parent tongues to retain their social value since many of the parent tongues default to each other at the 1/4 skill levels.  These follow the example of weapon group where specific weapons inside the same group default to skill - 10.

Related languages generally derive from the same parent tongue, and use the weapon group idea where weapons in the same category default at 1/4 skill before bonuses (max +25) plus the bonuses.  I also applied this to many of the parent/child language groups.  For example using this idea for real life languages Latin would default to 1/4 Italian plus bonuses, and Italian would default to 1/4 Latin or 1/4 Spanish.  If a character knows multiple languages that grant this default value they would use the value of their highest default unmodified by the other languages.

The largest deviation from my original idea is in the Rank Bonus portion.  While mapping this language structure out I saw many instances where a child language split from the parent language and was influenced by one or more other languages.  These influences wouldn't be great enough to warrant the 1/4 skill level of understanding but would still make it easier to use these languages none the less.  So I borrowed the mechanic used by skills such as ambush that grant a +1/rank.  To avoid an issue with linguists who have more than 10 ranks in a language and to further limit the bonus from these less related languages, I set the max bonus for these to +10.  I would allow that if a character knew multiple languages that granted a rank bonus to the same language then those bonuses would be cumulative up to the +10 max.

To prevent an even more confusing mess I would not allow defaults from default skills.  That shouldn't be a big deal since most language skill don't get more than 10 ranks assigned to them (thus 1/16 of a skill is a pretty small number).  In most cases I used the rank bonus for languages derived from a closely related language, which is the only condition where I could see someone really wishing to default from a default anyway.

I would have to say this worked pretty well, but got difficult when I got to my demi-human and goblinoid languages.  They all derived from High Sylvan and have a lot of interactions between each other.  This combined with the fact that the Humanic, Demi-human, and goblinoid languages had a split when groups of them fractured off to a different geography caused even more headaches with the relationships of these languages.

I like the results of this table, but I'm not convinced yet that it adds more value than it's complexity costs.

-Pyrotech