Author Topic: Levels of NPC's throughout the population of your game world.  (Read 15973 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Old Man

  • Wise Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 968
  • OIC Points +0/-0
    • The Campaign Nook
Re: Levels of NPC's throughout the population of your game world.
« Reply #60 on: September 27, 2013, 06:04:08 PM »
Note: for RM2/C you need 90's+ to have any power points in RMSS/FRP you do not.
...

IIRC, if you used the Smoothed Stats from ROCO I, you have PP down to 60-63. But most would do the "swap lowest for a 90 in prime" anyway, I'd hazard.
** Yes, some of ROCO IV and VII is my fault. **

Offline Cory Magel

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 5,618
  • OIC Points +5/-5
  • Fun > Balance > Realism
Re: Levels of NPC's throughout the population of your game world.
« Reply #61 on: September 27, 2013, 07:20:08 PM »
Ah, yeah, I didn't think about the fact that a lot of my lower end 'magic' items are really just master-crafted or material based bonuses. [...]

What level would the master crafter be?
(I'd ask how ranks they'd require, especially if ranks can be acquired by working w/o level gain, to be considered a master. 10? 20?)
There's a good question there - what bonus or # of ranks do you need to succeed at making a +5 or +10 item? (Apologies if I've forgotten that one of the earlier Laws covered such ... )

Well, that's the thing... just my personal outlook here... I don't bother trying to figure that out.  It's just needless information unless I want to leave things to random chance.  The players don't need that information and not even I need it unless there's meaningful interaction between the crafter and the players.  If there's a +5 Arrow sitting on the shelf in a high end shop or in a treasure pile it doesn't matter how it was made or by who, the only thing that matters is it exists.

Most higher end magic items are going to have been made a long time ago and sometimes by one or more unknown crafters.  Either that or they were created by a deity or some kind of unique event.

The only time I need to explain how an item came into being is if they themselves (the players) initiate it's creation.  I may have a history for major items (and surely will for epic stuff), but a +5 arrow?  No way.  It was made by a skilled craftsman or it was made of X material... nuff said.

If it's a fairly basic item (+5 Door Spike or Horse Shoes) they are just going to have to find the local (and that's relative) master crafter that even I don't need to know anything about because I'm either going to say they can find it or not, there's no randomness involved in it.  I decide if I want the players to have +5 Horse Shoes then the horse shoes are either available or they (the players) commission their creation.  The crafter will make them.  If he fails once or a dozen times the players wouldn't even know it, because the crafter took the commission and will make what was ordered.

Now, if it's something grand, then they are going to have to find a very specific person who is likely already a full fledged NPC I've designed for the setting... and just finding that individual might be an adventure in itself.  Lastly, while I might actually have designed that NPC fully, it doesn't really matter what it's exact ability is... it matters if I, the GM, want him to succeed in what he's trying to do.

Unless a character is at odds with an NPC I just don't need that information.  It's when you start dealing with opposed actions, that is when I need to know real numbers, skill levels, etc.  Combat, trying to charm someone, interrogation, seduction... that's when I need that stuff.
- Cory Magel

Game design priority: Fun > Balance > Realism (greater than > less than).
(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

"The only thing I know about adults is that they are obsolete children." - Dr Seuss

Offline Old Man

  • Wise Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 968
  • OIC Points +0/-0
    • The Campaign Nook
Re: Levels of NPC's throughout the population of your game world.
« Reply #62 on: September 27, 2013, 09:25:44 PM »
Cory,

What if the player wants to make a +5 item?
** Yes, some of ROCO IV and VII is my fault. **

Offline Thot

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 623
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Levels of NPC's throughout the population of your game world.
« Reply #63 on: September 28, 2013, 12:08:39 AM »
[...]
Well, that's the thing... just my personal outlook here... I don't bother trying to figure that out.  It's just needless information unless I want to leave things to random chance.  The players don't need that information and not even I need it unless there's meaningful interaction between the crafter and the players. 

That depends on one's playstyle. See, I like to have the little facts in my game world fit together, so that at some point, the players have that moment of sudden revelation about this or that. Such as in "that shopkeeper has lots and lots of magical items to sell - we came here to look for an ancient and very powerful magic user, who might know something about the Artifact of McGuffin - the shopkeeper must know (or be?) someone who can help us!". And that's just a very obvious example.

Moreover, when it gets into epic play, such as "the evil necromancer of Troos tries to take over the world, please, mighty heroes, lead our armies to stop them", I obviously need to know the composition of the necromancer's and the players' army - not only fighters and their average and median levels (troop quality), but also the availability of competent support - clerics to resurrect people, alchemists to enchant all the troops' equipment, healers, etc.

Actually, the cleric is a fine example - how many 12th level clerics will there be in a given world? I definitely need to know that, because my players will conclude things... like "dammit, PC#1 is dead... there is a small town two days from here, we are likely (or unlikely) to find someone to resurrect him there. We should go there or maybe rather go 3 days in the opposite direction, there's a larger town there." And of course, if there is a 12th level in every mid-sized town, that will affect the availability of even higher-level clerics (with better resurrection spells), too. Or if it won't, I need to know that, too.

And of course, I need to know if 15th level PC's are "mighty heroes" (who will be asked to lead armies), or just "barely competent adventurers". For that, I need to know what the rest of the game world is like, level-wise.

Consistency in a game helps me make it more believable, and even without me noticing opens new avenues of action and new levels of immersion for the players.

Quote
Most higher end magic items are going to have been made a long time ago and sometimes by one or more unknown crafters.  Either that or they were created by a deity or some kind of unique event.
[...]

That is, of course, a very popular fantasy trope. "Everything was bigger, better, brighter in the good old times". However, I don't like it or my games - it is not realistic in any way (in Earth's history, people get smarter every generation, and even when they don't, it is just a temporary setback that at most lasts two to four centuries, with even faster improvements following the recovery - thus, I believe in progress).

For a "this age is but a shadow of those before" campaign, low levels now and higher levels back then are obviously required. But for my consistency approach, even then I'd need to know how the level distribution was back then - because that will have affected everything the old times left behind - from buildings to magical items, and of course, including a "surviving evil archmage", who I need to be able to know what he was (in relative terms) in his own time - is a 15th level archmage from the days of old a former evil overlord, or a former captain in the evil overlord's army, or was he just a lab assistant?

Offline RandalThor

  • Sage
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,116
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Levels of NPC's throughout the population of your game world.
« Reply #64 on: September 28, 2013, 12:15:49 AM »
Of course, the people of the current age could just believe that a prior age was greater than their own...

That is like one of the Malazan Books of the Fallen by Steven Erickson; in it an ancient, undead powerful creature is woken and begins a bit of a rampage of destruction - right up until it meets a current being of power. Ultimately, it learned the hard way that magical progress had continued on while it slept its undead sleep.
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Scratch that. Power attracts the corruptible.

Rules should not replace the brain and thinking.

Offline Cory Magel

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 5,618
  • OIC Points +5/-5
  • Fun > Balance > Realism
Re: Levels of NPC's throughout the population of your game world.
« Reply #65 on: September 28, 2013, 03:22:51 AM »
That depends on one's playstyle. See, I like to have the little facts in my game world fit together, so that at some point, the players have that moment of sudden revelation about this or that. Such as in "that shopkeeper has lots and lots of magical items to sell - we came here to look for an ancient and very powerful magic user, who might know something about the Artifact of McGuffin - the shopkeeper must know (or be?) someone who can help us!". And that's just a very obvious example.
I don't see the players needing to know what skill total or level that shop keeper is, only that he has a bunch of magic items and therefore may have related information.  As a matter of fact, I'm never going to answer the question "What level is that guy?" or "What's his skill level?" with an actual number.  I'm going to say "He looks like he knows his stuff" or whatever.  Then I'm going to give them the information I want them to have.  The only time I need to know much about the shop keeper is if he has the info, doesn't want to give it up, and the players exert some type of non-friendly effort to obtain it.  The shop keepers stats have no real impact unless there is some form of opposition (i.e. using skills on, casting spells on, or attacking him).  Now, if the shopkeeper is a re-occurring NPC that the party is going to interact with on a regular basis, that changes things slightly.  But it definitely does not mean I need to know what level the rest of the shopkeepers in the world are.

Quote
Moreover, when it gets into epic play, such as "the evil necromancer of Troos tries to take over the world, please, mighty heroes, lead our armies to stop them", I obviously need to know the composition of the necromancer's and the players' army - not only fighters and their average and median levels (troop quality), but also the availability of competent support - clerics to resurrect people, alchemists to enchant all the troops' equipment, healers, etc.
You're getting into combat related information here.  In this you need to know skill totals and levels, but the players aren't privy to that until they confront it and get to judge for themselves based on the results of the encounter.  It does not mean I need to know what level that random peasant wandering down the street is or how well he can handle a sword and the players will never know until they attack him or he is being attacked by something they need to save him from... and even then all I need is an OB, DB and how many hits he has, his actual level is likely almost completely irrelevant to me because I don't really care and there's no way for the players to know for sure.

Quote
Actually, the cleric is a fine example - how many 12th level clerics will there be in a given world? I definitely need to know that, because my players will conclude things... like "dammit, PC#1 is dead... there is a small town two days from here, we are likely (or unlikely) to find someone to resurrect him there. We should go there or maybe rather go 3 days in the opposite direction, there's a larger town there." And of course, if there is a 12th level in every mid-sized town, that will affect the availability of even higher-level clerics (with better resurrection spells), too. Or if it won't, I need to know that, too.
With me the question would simply be: Do I want them to find a level 12 cleric and, if so, how far do I want them to have to go or what do I want them to have to do to find it?  The players will have to ask around, if they do not already know, and the answers I provide that were given by the individuals asked will give them the information they need.  It doesn't matter how many there are, only where I want there to be one... and the players would never know how many there are anyhow even if I had the number per-determined.  It will never be as simple as "There's a level 12 cleric every X many square miles".

Quote
And of course, I need to know if 15th level PC's are "mighty heroes" (who will be asked to lead armies), or just "barely competent adventurers". For that, I need to know what the rest of the game world is like, level-wise.
But you already know that if it's your own game.  I don't need to populate my entire world with essentially stat'ed out NPC's to know such a thing.

Quote
Quote
Most higher end magic items are going to have been made a long time ago and sometimes by one or more unknown crafters.  Either that or they were created by a deity or some kind of unique event.
[...]

That is, of course, a very popular fantasy trope. "Everything was bigger, better, brighter in the good old times". However, I don't like it or my games - it is not realistic in any way (in Earth's history, people get smarter every generation, and even when they don't, it is just a temporary setback that at most lasts two to four centuries, with even faster improvements following the recovery - thus, I believe in progress).
I don't think there's any 'of course' about it.  It's the GM's call how they want that to work.  If you have 10 ages of 'modern' man that were able to make magic items then 9 out of 10 came from a previous age on average.  It's simple math.  The current magic item makers are not going to flood the world with more epic magic items than the rest of the previous ages combined.

Keep in mind when I said most the items would be very old I was talking about major or epic magic items in my setting.  Don't don't get created every day... so most of them will be very old.

Quote
For a "this age is but a shadow of those before" campaign, low levels now and higher levels back then are obviously required. But for my consistency approach, even then I'd need to know how the level distribution was back then - because that will have affected everything the old times left behind - from buildings to magical items, and of course, including a "surviving evil archmage", who I need to be able to know what he was (in relative terms) in his own time - is a 15th level archmage from the days of old a former evil overlord, or a former captain in the evil overlord's army, or was he just a lab assistant?
Why create so much work for yourself?  What you want there is there.  What level someone needed to be to do it is largely irrelevant if the actual creator no longer has any impact on the current age.  Only what they created matters if it's still around.

I could have a magical castle that's 2000 years old created by some long dead powerful wizard.  But since the wizard is dead it doesn't matter what level or skill totals he achieved, only that his castle is still around and what it's properties are.  If some player wants to knock themselves out trying to figure out what level said wizard needed to be to create whatever magical property the castle has I would just shake my head in wonder.  Until they try to make some kind of opposed action (dispel something for example) it's pointless and, if they do try to, I'll assign an appropriately high target level.  But it doesn't mean I need to know what level craftsman every building in the town required to build them.
- Cory Magel

Game design priority: Fun > Balance > Realism (greater than > less than).
(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

"The only thing I know about adults is that they are obsolete children." - Dr Seuss

Offline Cory Magel

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 5,618
  • OIC Points +5/-5
  • Fun > Balance > Realism
Re: Levels of NPC's throughout the population of your game world.
« Reply #66 on: September 28, 2013, 03:32:15 AM »
Cory, What if the player wants to make a +5 item?
If it's a player you already have a level and skill total and the rules already exist for that.  I don't need to determine it, it's already a fully fleshed out character.  Completely different than thinking I need to have a fleshed out character for every individual the character lay eyes on let alone in the world.
- Cory Magel

Game design priority: Fun > Balance > Realism (greater than > less than).
(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

"The only thing I know about adults is that they are obsolete children." - Dr Seuss

Offline Thot

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 623
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Levels of NPC's throughout the population of your game world.
« Reply #67 on: September 28, 2013, 05:01:17 AM »
[...]
I don't see the players needing to know what skill total or level that shop keeper is,

How common or easy to make his items are for the general NPC population they will have to know (for my style of play). If an item that requires a 15th level alchemist in a world where there is essentially only one 15thlevel alchemist is buyable there, then the shopkeeper will know how to contact that alchemist - but if every 35-year-old alchemist is 15th level, then a 15th level alchemist obviously isn't the one rare individual the PC's are looking for. So I need to know that kind of stuff.

I am not advocating "stat out every NPC". I am just saying "I need to know how common certain types and levels of abilities are".

Quote
Quote
Moreover, when it gets into epic play, such as "the evil necromancer of Troos tries to take over the world, please, mighty heroes, lead our armies to stop them", I obviously need to know the composition of the necromancer's and the players' army - not only fighters and their average and median levels (troop quality), but also the availability of competent support - clerics to resurrect people, alchemists to enchant all the troops' equipment, healers, etc.
You're getting into combat related information here.  In this you need to know skill totals and levels, but the players aren't privy to that until they confront it and get to judge for themselves based on the results of the encounter. 

"How many of our clerics can resurrect the dead, and how often per day" is a very relevant question for a responsible general to ask. The same goes for "how many of our healers and lay healers can have you regrow a limb in what time".

I need to be able to give an answer to that. Even if nobody in the game world knows it, the information will be retrievable, and I as the GM need to be able to deliver it.

Quote
With me the question would simply be: Do I want them to find a level 12 cleric and, if so, how far do I want them to have to go or what do I want them to have to do to find it?

If it works for your group, then more power to you! But for me, as a player, that would smell bad - as if the GM wasn't letting me acting out my character in a believable world, but manipulating me into jumping through a hoop.

Quote
Quote
And of course, I need to know if 15th level PC's are "mighty heroes" (who will be asked to lead armies), or just "barely competent adventurers". For that, I need to know what the rest of the game world is like, level-wise.
But you already know that if it's your own game.  [...]

If and only if I have made up my mind about the level distribution question beforehand.



Quote
Quote
[...]
That is, of course, a very popular fantasy trope. [...]
I don't think there's any 'of course' about it.  It's the GM's call how they want that to work. 

I beg to differ. What is popular or not in our general western culture's fantasy literature and movies is not subject to GM fiat. :)

Quote
If you have 10 ages of 'modern' man that were able to make magic items then 9 out of 10 came from a previous age on average.  It's simple math. 

Don't you need to factor in how many items get lost per year (or age) to the forces of entropy (such as fire, malicious intent, the inevitable chasm where things get dropped into, etc...)?

Quote
Quote
[...] is a 15th level archmage from the days of old a former evil overlord, or a former captain in the evil overlord's army, or was he just a lab assistant?
Why create so much work for yourself? 

Actually, it saves work. I know the level of the PC's, I know what place that level has in the current world, and what place it would have had in the world back then, so I immediately know what kind of role the villain would have had - so I already know something about his story, his personality, and his motives, and thus his tactics.

Quote
What you want there is there.  What level someone needed to be to do it is largely irrelevant if the actual creator no longer has any impact on the current age.  Only what they created matters if it's still around.

A few years back, I ran a campaign on Middle Earth. The villain of that campaign was the dragon Rutaug, one of Morgoth's captains in the First Age (essentially, sort of a junior partner of guys like Sauron), who had been buried along with his company of First-Age-high-level-orcs when Morgoth's fortress fell, and who put himself and his subordinates into a magical stasis - to be awakened when something frees them from their underground prison, which a friend of the PC's, a dwarf and his clan, eventually did while digging for silver in the Iron Mountains. The campaign (which started by sneakingly freeing the imprisoned Dwaves, and then spread from the Iron Mountains over Rhovanion up into Dorwinion, and both the Mountains and the Sea of Rhûn, and ended in the Northern Wastes, where Rutaug had built and army) involved some fighting, both the dragon's minions and the dragon himself. From the start, I had an idea how powerful the dragon and his minions were, and plenty of opportunities to display the (initial) difference in power levels to the PC's without having them killed. Not exact stats in each and every case, but a precise enough idea to handle those NPC's convincingly. All I needed for this was to know where those NPC's came from, what they were back then, and what they were now, relative to the general population. The rest basically happened by itself - quite naturally, just because the initial conditions were well-defined.

I heard there are GM's who can just make this kind of stuff up on the fly so that it looks believable, though I've never met one. That's not me. I need some structure first, or it becomes too much work.

Offline Old Man

  • Wise Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 968
  • OIC Points +0/-0
    • The Campaign Nook
Re: Levels of NPC's throughout the population of your game world.
« Reply #68 on: September 28, 2013, 08:25:28 AM »
Cory, What if the player wants to make a +5 item?
If it's a player you already have a level and skill total and the rules already exist for that.  I don't need to determine it, it's already a fully fleshed out character.  Completely different than thinking I need to have a fleshed out character for every individual the character lay eyes on let alone in the world.

Actually, that was an aside as I didn't recall the rules to make bonus items by crafting. Anyone have a reference handy for RMC/RM2? Thanks ...
** Yes, some of ROCO IV and VII is my fault. **

Offline Cory Magel

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 5,618
  • OIC Points +5/-5
  • Fun > Balance > Realism
Re: Levels of NPC's throughout the population of your game world.
« Reply #69 on: September 28, 2013, 02:08:40 PM »
Thot: I guess what it comes down to is are you going to let the setting or system dictate to you how available something is?  I don't think many experienced GM's are going to put up with that.  When I run a game I want it to be my game, not just something that is handed to me and I'm merely the referee looking up information, statistics and rules.

Unless you want someone/something else dictating it to you how many clerics/healers are available to a general in a battle/war it is up to you the GM to decide what that number is.  Do you want the general to win?  Then there are more.  Do you want the general to lose?  Then there are less.  Do you want to leave it to chance?  Then set a number up front or just let it be dictated to you and what happens happens.

In terms of magic items it doesn't matter to me how many are lost over time - they are lost.  It only matters to me how many are available right now and I am the one that's going to decide that.  I don't want the game/system determining for me how common high end alchemists are and, therefore, how common high end magic items are.  I want to decide that for my game.  Even with simple +5 utility items... do I want the players to be able to buy any +5 master-crafted item willy nilly and effectively just ramp up the whole game by +5 or do I want to control that escalation over the course of the game?  It has nothing to do with believability.  What I determine is the reality for the world/characters.

Quote
I heard there are GM's who can just make this kind of stuff up on the fly so that it looks believable, though I've never met one. That's not me. I need some structure first, or it becomes too much work.
We have a GM in our group of gamers that needs to have everything written before he even starts the game.  He actually has the campaign (as it stands now) completely finished before we even start.  We have a GM that only writes the next session after we've completed the last one.  I am somewhat in the middle.  I have an outline for the long term campaign, but I'm not going to fully detail it out in advance.  Choice the players make will change the course of things sometimes, so I'm not going to plan out in detail what they could possibly derail.

There are professional writers who MUST have the story planned out in their head, ones who have a basic outline, and ones who completely just write what they think should happen next (Steven Brust is one of those).

We have GM (that we really don't game with much anymore) that was completely inflexible in what he had prepared.  If we tried to go down a road that he had nothing planned for we would, literally, supposedly run into a road block of some kind.  If there was a turn in a dungeon he didn't want us to take there's be an "under construction" sign.  Literally.  It was often humorous, but it showed a lack of ability to control the situation in a believable manner, it told us we had little to no choice in what happened.  Then we have a GM would would COMPLETELY free-form his game, and he did well enough.  There was no long term goal or plot, but it was fun enough.  With me, I will have the session mapped out and I will give some freedom in how the players want to proceed, but if a certain event needs to happen it will likely happen no matter what road they go down.  There will be no road block forbidding them to  pass, but choosing that road will eventually lead to that event anyhow.  Even in the even that something MUST happen, they have the appearance of choice at least.

If an NPC will never have any impact on the game (which almost always means the players come into conflict with or are allied with that NPC in a meaningful way) I'm just not going to worry about the specific details.  To me trying to figure that out is far more work than winging it and I'm not about to have the system dictate it to me.  When they ask "Where is a cleric who can resurrect" I am not going to get out a booklet that says "A town has to be X size in order to have X level cleric which will appear every X miles: So they need to travel HERE to get what they are looking for."  I am going to say "You'll have to ask around" and when they do some random person who finally has relevant info will say "In X town in Y direction I've heard there's a powerful healer." and the players are going to head that way.  The players don't have all the info for the whole world at their hands, so they shouldn't know if I'm just winging it or referencing an insanely large and all knowing world almanac (personally I would find the GM having to refer to statistics less immersing).  I you don't need to do that then you already knew the answer in the back of your head and don't need it determined for you.

So, again, for me the first question is: Do I want them to find said cleric?  The second question, if the first is yes is: How hard to I want to make them work to find that cleric?  They should never know if I knew that answer at the very start of the game or if I just pulled it out of a hat.
- Cory Magel

Game design priority: Fun > Balance > Realism (greater than > less than).
(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

"The only thing I know about adults is that they are obsolete children." - Dr Seuss

Offline Thot

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 623
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Levels of NPC's throughout the population of your game world.
« Reply #70 on: September 28, 2013, 02:58:08 PM »
Thot: I guess what it comes down to is are you going to let the setting or system dictate to you how available something is? 

Uh, there is no "dictatorship" in making a few decisions before you start the campaign and then sticking to them?

Quote
When I run a game I want it to be my game,

To me, it is not "my", but "our" game. Because the players have certain expectations, and rightly so. What exactly those expectations will be differs from group to group, of course.

Quote
In terms of magic items it doesn't matter to me how many are lost over time - they are lost. 

You yourself stated it was simple math to conclude how many magical items are available from earlier times. If every age, there are about, say 50% of items which do not make it into the next age, and you have ten ages, including the current one, then that will mean that there are only 0.1% of the original items left at the end of the tenth age - they will simply not be relevant for today's magical items stock. You can easily see how the number of items that gets lost is very relevant here.

Quote
It only matters to me how many are available right now and I am the one that's going to decide that. 

If your players are fine with that, that's cool! Mine wouldn't be, and I wouldn't be when I play, either.

Quote
We have a GM in our group of gamers that needs to have everything written before he even starts the game. 

Please don't change the subject. ;)

Quote
Do I want them to find said cleric?  [...]

My players might have checked out the availability of clerics before they even went to that dragon cave. When GM fiat then suddenly changes what they rightfully assumed to be game-world fact, they might be a little upset. I would be.

Offline Cory Magel

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 5,618
  • OIC Points +5/-5
  • Fun > Balance > Realism
Re: Levels of NPC's throughout the population of your game world.
« Reply #71 on: September 28, 2013, 07:13:53 PM »
Thot: I guess what it comes down to is are you going to let the setting or system dictate to you how available something is? 
Uh, there is no "dictatorship" in making a few decisions before you start the campaign and then sticking to them?
There you are thinking what I'm thinking.  You determine this.  You make the choice what there is and isn't.  Maybe the difference is you feel you need to have it all documented and maybe even symmetrical (thinking that's less work for you) when I would just rather do it naturally at the time it becomes needed (which, by my thinking, is far less work for me).

Quote
To me, it is not "my", but "our" game. Because the players have certain expectations, and rightly so. What exactly those expectations will be differs from group to group, of course.
My players don't know there will be a 12th level Cleric every X many square miles.  They only know what they've learned and/or what is relevant to them.  They know that, if they don't already know where one is, they'll have to figure out where the next one is.  Not that they just need to travel to the nearest specific sized community because it must have a X level cleric because the community is Y large.  I don't want my players to feel entitled to the availability of a certain non-standard NPC type or item.

Quote
You yourself stated it was simple math to conclude how many magical items are available from earlier times. If every age, there are about, say 50% of items which do not make it into the next age, and you have ten ages, including the current one, then that will mean that there are only 0.1% of the original items left at the end of the tenth age - they will simply not be relevant for today's magical items stock. You can easily see how the number of items that gets lost is very relevant here.
Depends entirely on if you think major/epic magic items don't survive well.  I think if it's a powerful item it is going to last and it is going to be kept safe by whoever owns it.

Quote
If your players are fine with that, that's cool! Mine wouldn't be, and I wouldn't be when I play, either.
I don't understand why players would be concerned with how many magic items have dissapeared never to be found again throughout the ages.  What purpose would that information serve?

Quote
Quote
We have a GM in our group of gamers that needs to have everything written before he even starts the game. 
Please don't change the subject. ;)
That is on subject.  You seem to be saying you want to know how much of everything there is and how far you'll need to reach it and that the players are owed that information.  If my players ask me "where is the nearest 50th level alchemist" my answer is not going to effectively be "There's one in X city because that's how big a city has to be to have one and as such there is one guaranteed to be there."

Quote
My players might have checked out the availability of clerics before they even went to that dragon cave. When GM fiat then suddenly changes what they rightfully assumed to be game-world fact, they might be a little upset. I would be.
Different.  They looked for it.  They didn't just assume they need to travel X miles and they'll magically find one when someone gets hurt.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to convince you you're wrong... I just don't understand how someone could think having a strict formula for something and documenting them all up front is less work and why information that seems completely irrelevant to the players current situation is owed to them.  I'd go nuts doing that amount of prep work.

Course, I have had a GM where you could actually walk 50 miles, dig a hole and he could tell you what's there.  I thought he was nuts. :)
- Cory Magel

Game design priority: Fun > Balance > Realism (greater than > less than).
(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

"The only thing I know about adults is that they are obsolete children." - Dr Seuss

Offline Cory Magel

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 5,618
  • OIC Points +5/-5
  • Fun > Balance > Realism
Re: Levels of NPC's throughout the population of your game world.
« Reply #72 on: September 28, 2013, 08:35:09 PM »
If it's a player you already have a level and skill total and the rules already exist for that.  I don't need to determine it, it's already a fully fleshed out character.  Completely different than thinking I need to have a fleshed out character for every individual the character lay eyes on let alone in the world.
Actually, that was an aside as I didn't recall the rules to make bonus items by crafting. Anyone have a reference handy for RMC/RM2? Thanks ...
I'd use the RMSS Treasure Companion and maybe pull some info from Castles and Ruins or maybe ...And A Ten Foot Pole in that I'd just want to determine the success role needed and if they hit one of the upper end totals (unusual success and so on) I'd give a possible craftsmanship bonus.  We've never needed to however as the players tend to rarely have an all out full on trade skill in crafting of some sort.  The campaign I'm working with right now they all have a non-adventuring skill, but they tend towards non-crafting things such as sailing related skills or the like.

As far as material bonuses I've pulled that info from various RM2, RMSS and Shadow World books.  I have non-magical materials that range from +5 to +15 and magical materials that range up to +25 and +30 in rare cases.  Materials +20 or more require an alchemist to work along side the crafter (assuming the creator is not both).
- Cory Magel

Game design priority: Fun > Balance > Realism (greater than > less than).
(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

"The only thing I know about adults is that they are obsolete children." - Dr Seuss

Offline Thot

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 623
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Levels of NPC's throughout the population of your game world.
« Reply #73 on: September 29, 2013, 02:04:01 AM »
[...]
you feel you need to have it all documented
[...]

I think you may want to re-read my posts of you believe that.

Offline markc

  • Elder Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 10,697
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Levels of NPC's throughout the population of your game world.
« Reply #74 on: September 29, 2013, 08:28:59 AM »
 One thihng you can do is ask the players. Get them involved in the creation somewhat and see were and how it goes.
MDC
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline VladD

  • RMU Dev Team
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,468
  • OIC Points +10/-10
Re: Levels of NPC's throughout the population of your game world.
« Reply #75 on: September 29, 2013, 11:32:25 AM »
With things like the level of the general populace, it should all lie in the hands of the GM.

Some GMs, like myself, follow Dan Henry's train of thought, with XP being doled out for things people experience and even if it is only 10 XP per day, in the end that will be 3600 xp per year, or one level per 3 years for the first 5 lvls. Then it is 1 level per 6 years. So an old craftsman, who made guild elder in the Candeliers guild will be 8-11th lvl. It makes sense to have PCs level up, and as they level up, that will become part of the upper echelons of society. The paupers will still be like minions, averaging 2-4th lvl, but the baron is lvl 10-15. His son perhaps lvl 7. Some experienced guard captains might have accrued 15-20 lvls during their career, etc. Challenges to the PCs power can still come from society and it matters if Sewy the seamstress is lvl 10 or 12 if she can handle that delicate brocade and turn it in a stunning evening gown for the player character.

Other GMs might stress such development less and wish the PCs to outgrow "society" relatively fast, so they can get to the real business of the campaign. It shouldn't matter in such a campaign if Smitty the smith is lvl 0, or 5: as long as he got a forge and is churning out swords and breast plates for other cannon fodder up to the final climactic battle.

The choice is what kind of campaign are you planning: a truly epic campaign, where the players do battle with extra dimensional gods trying to take over this plane of existence or the campaign is nitty gritty and the threat comes from a neighboring realm invading the PCs homeland.
Epic campaigns suffer from muggles turning out to be bosses: as a GM you want the campaign to surge forward; from finding the ancient scriptures, to visiting the alien temple, to discovering the summoning to be nearly completed, to the drawn out battles with all the extra dimensional demi gods, etc, etc. Some stupid official telling the players they don't have the required permit to acquire 2 tons of mercury to stop the next demigod is a total anticlimax in such a campaign.
While an evasion by a neighboring state where lvl 8 special forces try to lower a drawbridge of the PCs home town, after which they discover that a lvl 10 sorcerer is holed up nearby, where they face a lvl 13 caged beast, but they need to bribe the 14th lvl official to get their hands on some rare herb to defeat it is an acceptable nitty gritty campaign build up (or it is in my eyes).
While players might have acceptable ideas, and as a GM you may take a hint when players pose suggestions, it should finally depend on the kind of story you want to tell. Muppets or Bosses?
Game On!

Offline jdale

  • RMU Dev Team
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,117
  • OIC Points +25/-25
Re: Levels of NPC's throughout the population of your game world.
« Reply #76 on: September 29, 2013, 07:30:59 PM »
With things like the level of the general populace, it should all lie in the hands of the GM.

Some GMs, like myself, follow Dan Henry's train of thought, with XP being doled out for things people experience and even if it is only 10 XP per day, in the end that will be 3600 xp per year, or one level per 3 years for the first 5 lvls. Then it is 1 level per 6 years. So an old craftsman, who made guild elder in the Candeliers guild will be 8-11th lvl. It makes sense to have PCs level up, and as they level up, that will become part of the upper echelons of society. The paupers will still be like minions, averaging 2-4th lvl, but the baron is lvl 10-15.

Why would the paupers be 2-4th level? If you make these assumptions, all your 60-year-old winos and bums will also be level 15 and up.
System and Line Editor for Rolemaster

Offline Old Man

  • Wise Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 968
  • OIC Points +0/-0
    • The Campaign Nook
Re: Levels of NPC's throughout the population of your game world.
« Reply #77 on: September 29, 2013, 08:30:36 PM »
With things like the level of the general populace, it should all lie in the hands of the GM.

Some GMs, like myself, follow Dan Henry's train of thought, with XP being doled out for things people experience and even if it is only 10 XP per day, in the end that will be 3600 xp per year, or one level per 3 years for the first 5 lvls. Then it is 1 level per 6 years. So an old craftsman, who made guild elder in the Candeliers guild will be 8-11th lvl. It makes sense to have PCs level up, and as they level up, that will become part of the upper echelons of society. The paupers will still be like minions, averaging 2-4th lvl, but the baron is lvl 10-15.

Why would the paupers be 2-4th level? If you make these assumptions, all your 60-year-old winos and bums will also be level 15 and up.

LOL. For a different style, I don't deal out DPs per day for the general populace. But they can gain DPs as they work (via time rather than allocated XP->Levels). So your low "experience" level crafter can still be a master in their trade (10-20 ranks).
** Yes, some of ROCO IV and VII is my fault. **

Offline Thot

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 623
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Levels of NPC's throughout the population of your game world.
« Reply #78 on: September 29, 2013, 11:32:07 PM »
[...]
Why would the paupers be 2-4th level? If you make these assumptions, all your 60-year-old winos and bums will also be level 15 and up.

Indeed - shouldn't NPC level be based on age alone, with a bonus for having gone through hardships, such as "survived the siege of her city thirteen years ago, +2 levels" or somehting like that.

Unless, of course, the society in question is a meritocracy that somehow makes you a higher class if you are more capable... then your level would indirectly translate into your social status. Otherwise, I don't see how the baron wil be necessarily of a higher level than the beggar of the same age - in fact, the beggar has a tougher life, so he will quite likely be higher in level.

Offline Thot

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 623
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Levels of NPC's throughout the population of your game world.
« Reply #79 on: September 29, 2013, 11:34:23 PM »
[...]
LOL. For a different style, I don't deal out DPs per day for the general populace. But they can gain DPs as they work (via time rather than allocated XP->Levels). So your low "experience" level crafter can still be a master in their trade (10-20 ranks).

What's the purpose of this special rule? To keep the NPC's from resisting spells and such?