Topic: Question re: fighting in cramped tunnels

[PhillipAEllis]

G'day!

I'm working on something at the moment that would see human-sized players having to crawl through earthen tunnels to get to a critter's lair. Obviously, if the critter attacks in the tunnels, the players' options are pretty limited.

As I see it, only small weapons (eg. daggers), piercing weapons like spears etcetera will be able to be used (with what penalties?). Waving a short sword around would be more difficult, risking a collapse of the tunnel; swords, maces & other hafted weapons, ranged weapons would be useless.

How would you, in these situations, handle the problems faced by humans fighting, and how would you handle smaller races (eg. dwarves, halflings, etcetera)?

[RandalThor]

Well, I guess I would take the weapon's size into consideration. A small weapon that can easily be used in one hand, like a dagger, I would probably only go with a -30 or so, while a spear or javelin, etc... (able to be used one-handed, but not small) I would go with a -50 or so. (If these seem high to you, then go with -20/-40 or something like that, use your judgment.)

The real problem here is that the PCs will have zero DB - or you could just grant the "critters" a bonus to OB, or both - because they will be unable to maneuver in the cramped tunnels.

[Cory Magel]

Hand, Light or maybe even Medium crossbows might be an option, but obviously only for those with line of sight.

Essentially I'd take their existing weapons, assign another chart to use (i.e. a lesser weapon type) and give them a decent penalty.  You'll have to decide how harsh you want to be.  For example, if you make the 2H Sword hit as a spear with a penalty are you going to let them use their 2H Sword skill, or the (potentially horrible) spear skill to do it with?  I don't think I'd go so far as to make them effectively use a weapon (chart) they don't know how to and stack a penalty on that... I think I would say use 50% of your existing weapon skill OB and assign whatever weapon chart makes sense to attack on with it.

Lastly, you'll need to figure out if long weapons can be actually be turned around.  Once you're in a tunnel the 2H Sword may only be able to point in one direction... leaving your backside exposed unless someone has weapons point the other way.  The group will just need to decide for themselves how to handle it based on the rulings you make on their available weapon choices.  If they've diversified a little they may be ok.  I almost always develop one small weapon with melee oriented types on top of whatever my main weapon choice(s) are.  (course, I often play a light fighter type that won't be hosed in tight quarters).

I'd be willing to bet, provided they knew what they were getting into and didn't have a better option, my group would create a whole lot of differing length make-shift spears (so PC's can reach past each other with them) and create a form of spear wall so the enemies can't approach you without coming face to face with a lot of sharp pointy sticks (literally).

[markc]

 If you have access to the RMSS Martial Arts Companion it has some info for fighting in cramped spaces in there. I also think that there is some info (from the MAC) in the ICE Archives that may help you out if you do a search.
MDC

[Ynglaur]

Recon by fire: send fireballs down the tunnels in front of you.

[intothatdarkness]

Depends completely on the size of your tunnels. If it's literally crawling height, your players will be pretty limited. Width also becomes a factor. If only one character at a time can advance, the idea of a "wall of pointy sticks" gets tricky. Dwarves (depending on how you define them in your world) would clearly have an advantage, since they're raised and trained to fight in enclosed places.

Assuming you're talking about literal crawling height, I'd likely allow crossbows at a normal OB (but with an extended reload time for Heavy Crossbows). Short bows might be usable, but a long bow would really be out of the question (no draw room). Any sort of spear or pole arm would be at a major disadvantage, as would larger swords. Again, your advantage would go to thrusting weapons as opposed to those that require a swing. Halflings would likely be able to use a wider variety of weapons, as their height would hinder them less than humans, but they (again, depending on your world) wouldn't necessarily have the underground fighting expertise of dwarves.

And in an enclosed space I think I'd opt for firebolts (or lightning bolts) as opposed to fireballs.

[yammahoper]

the old Arms Companion has a table and a skill to negate the penalties when fighting in restricted space.

[Cory Magel]

Recon by fire: send fireballs down the tunnels in front of you.

That could have very, very nasty repercussions in our game.  Combustion rules.  Unless you can thrown it far enough that the ball wouldn't blow back down the tunnel at you you'd be looking at a fireball attack with absolutely no defense (quickness doesn't mean squat if you have no where to go).

[GrumpyOldFart]

IIRC, boxers consider an unarmed person's range to be twice the length of his arms. If you're armed, add the length of the weapon to that. For any weapon that is swung instead of thrust, I'd say length of arm+length of weapon is pretty much the minimum room needed to use it at no penalty. Minimum in all directions that is, both sides and above. If you go by the old RM standard, "you can't" basically equals -100, which would be found when the tunnel is the same dimensions as the vict - er, the person trying to fight in it. If you go with a simple linear progression, 3/4 of those minimum dimensions =-25, half =-50, 1/4 =-75, etc.

Of course, if it's literally a crawlspace, everybody with any kind of weapon is at a penalty because they're crawling. The above assumes you can stand. I'm not sure it would be possible to cock a heavy crossbow at all, you can't get any leverage in a situation like that. Thrusting weapons may force someone to keep their distance, but if you do succeed in impaling someone you may be helpless from then on, because there's no way to get in a proper position to pull him loose. For practical purposes your weapon becomes a mop with a very morbid mophead.

Recon by fire: send fireballs down the tunnels in front of you.

That could have very, very nasty repercussions in our game.  Combustion rules.  Unless you can thrown it far enough that the ball wouldn't blow back down the tunnel at you you'd be looking at a fireball attack with absolutely no defense (quickness doesn't mean squat if you have no where to go).

Exactly. Bolts only, always. Cone maybe, but never a ball. Personally I prefer ice or water, a really evil GM will make you worry about anoxia if you get too free with fire in enclosed spaces.

[Cory Magel]

Yeah, there are two basic methods of thought on things like Fireball.

1. You open a window to that elemental plane of the size described in the spell. Thus, no combustion.
2. You actually create the element in an explosion-like effect (or maybe implosion for Void). Combustion, in many cases.

[RandalThor]

Yeah, there are two basic methods of thought on things like Fireball.

1. You open a window to that elemental plane of the size described in the spell. Thus, no combustion.
2. You actually create the element in an explosion-like effect (or maybe implosion for Void). Combustion, in many cases.

No. 1 sounds more like wall of fire, and No. 2 the classic fireball. But, I guess it depends upon the type of magic being done.

[intothatdarkness]

Exactly. Bolts only, always. Cone maybe, but never a ball. Personally I prefer ice or water, a really evil GM will make you worry about anoxia if you get too free with fire in enclosed spaces.

<raises hand> That would be me...which is why I'd never use a fireball. If it's really a crawlspace-sized area, a fireball would eat up most of the available oxygen pretty quickly.

[RandalThor]

Exactly. Bolts only, always. Cone maybe, but never a ball. Personally I prefer ice or water, a really evil GM will make you worry about anoxia if you get too free with fire in enclosed spaces.

<raises hand> That would be me...which is why I'd never use a fireball. If it's really a crawlspace-sized area, a fireball would eat up most of the available oxygen pretty quickly.

I don't think we were assuming a completely closed off space, just tight. Heck, if you are lost, the fireball trick might point to the exit...

[intothatdarkness]

Exactly. Bolts only, always. Cone maybe, but never a ball. Personally I prefer ice or water, a really evil GM will make you worry about anoxia if you get too free with fire in enclosed spaces.

<raises hand> That would be me...which is why I'd never use a fireball. If it's really a crawlspace-sized area, a fireball would eat up most of the available oxygen pretty quickly.

I don't think we were assuming a completely closed off space, just tight. Heck, if you are lost, the fireball trick might point to the exit...

That's why I said way back when that it depends completely on the physical surroundings and situation. Depending on party vision capabilities, they might launch off a fireball that detonates at a turn in the passage they didn't see prior to launching said ball. Too many things can go wrong too fast with area weapons or spells. Since the OP didn't specify dimensions but said "crawl" and "critter," my takeaway from that language is narrow, twisting tunnels that would restrict human-sized characters to single file and hands-and-knees (or at best a very stooped walking motion). GOF and I seem to be working from the same "it depends" context, and it's hard to say what the penalties would be without knowing exact tunnel/passage specs.

And for finding a way out, I would think a fog-based spell would be better than fire.

[PhillipAEllis]

Even a standard candle, relying on airflow to point which way is out.

[Cory Magel]

The balls in my game are bigger than most too (insert your own joke here).  I generally use 5' hexes indoors or on the deck of a ship, so while they can be more powerful you have more trouble placing them safely.

[RandalThor]

Alright guys, I didn't say it was the only or even the best way, just that it might work. Sheesh, try to come up with a clever and unusual way to use a spell and     

[GrumpyOldFart]

I don't think we were assuming a completely closed off space, just tight. Heck, if you are lost, the fireball trick might point to the exit...

Even if it's not completely closed off, if it's closed off enough to get very little air movement, that's plenty bad enough. Underground mines with no doors in them anywhere are subject to problems due to lack of ventilation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underground_mine_ventilation

Presumably you could run into anoxia related problems just by staying in one spot and breathing for too long, unless the workings are cut correctly to direct airflow and the prevailing winds on the surface are reliable. Without powered fans, a 90 degree shift in wind direction for 24 for hours could kill everyone down below all by itself, with no fires needed.

[RandalThor]

As a mild claustrophobic, and one who has undergone near passing out from lack of oxygen (from duck-diving waves in Hawaii and getting knocked around until I didn't know which way was up - I limited myself to waves that were under 10-feet after that), I get that lack of oxygen is not good. I was just pointing out that the OP did not in any way mention lack of oxygen as a factor, so there was no reason to bring it up; I just mentioned that the fireball might displace enough air to allow the PCs to use it to determine which way fresh(er) air lies. (And it is still a good idea, possibly even better than the candle or fog (at least for short bits): the flow might be too little to affect a candle or the fog much, if at all. The fog will also generally sink, won't it? So it is best used to find hidden holes and/or trap-doors in the floor.)

Though another reason not to use fire/cold/lightning-balls (and perhaps even the bolt versions) is mentioned: "earthen tunnels." Not rock, but earth, generally meaning well-packed, but dislodge-able dirt. So, anything that might cause it to collapse should be avoided. Heck, that would likely be a fantastic defensive tactic by the "critter" so long as it is intelligent enough: wait until the group is in a tunnel, then collapse both ends for several yards. Depending upon the power-level of the PCs, that could very well be a TPK. I could totally see goblins and kobolds doing this.