Topic: Trying to understand the game.

[LearningTheGame]

Hello everyone!!

My group of friends and I are preparing a new campaign and, after years playing d&d, decided to give a try to RMFRP.

We are having a hard time trying to understand how the game works, but the most difficult subject is parrying. we find it quite confusing.

Could any of you offer some help?

How does it work?

For example Player A has +100 OB and +10 DB and is in combat with 3 orcs (one front, one flank, one rear).

If he uses 60 OB to increase DB...

• a) He would get +70 DB against all of them and could attack one of them with +40 OB
• b) He would have to divide the OB bonus used to increase the DB. In this example, and assuming he shares equally his OB against the 3 orcs, would get +30 DB against each of them and would get a +40 OB attack against one of them
• c) He would have to use his +60 OB to parry the attack of the orc he's attacking as you can only parry attacks from the enemy you are attacking. He gets his +40 OB attack.*
  
• d) He would have to use his +60 OB to parry the attack of one of the orcs because you can only parry one attack each round. He gets his +40 OB attack.*
  
• e) Other  (for example he can not parry one, or several orcs due to his position)
  

* If you can only parry one attack/enemy each round this game is death herself @.@

[/list]
           
When can you parry?

If you are not executing an attack action...Can you still sum up your OB to your DB? In the example above if Player A casts a spell or uses one skill...Does he have the possibility of adding his OB to his DB or he is totally defenseless? 

If you are retreating from combat (just trying to move without attacking...Can you parry?

Lots of thanks. The game looks great but it's quite complex.

[yammahoper]

officially, you may only parry one foe, the one you are attcking at that.

I have house ruled for over 20 years that parry is applied to all frontal attacks (the three frontal facings on a hex map).  I see parry as a statement of defence.  I have never had a problem with this house rule, but again it is not RAW.

And yes, RAW RM is quite deadly.  In my experience with real life combat, the parry rules as written are to harsh (and the martial arts is too powerful; win some, lose some).

Welcome to RM.  I is an excellent game.  The combat is much tenser than more romantic systems were one swing can maim and kill. 

[markc]

LearningTheGame:


 First Welcome to the ICE Forums.


Q1) As Yammahopper said above you can only parry the person you are attacking as rules as written (RAW). This does make having multiple people attack you be very deadly as was devised by the creators.


Q2) Parry is an attack action so if you are casting a spell which is also an action you need enough action % to do both, even though you are not trying to damage the target.


Note: Even if you are using all of your OB to parry you get a +0 attack on your (a) target if possible.


Does that help?
MDC 

[DangerMan]

We play it like Mr. Yamma; You may parry against any frontal attack. Works like a charm!

The game is still rather deadly, though, which could be alleviated with faith points, from the Channelig Companion. That book is a must IMO, so check it out if you aint got it already!

[yammahoper]

I shouldn't post responses until my first cup of coffee is finished.  Look at all those typos.  I fat finger enough, add in my daughters chocolate milk bath for the key board without a caffeine fix to boot...well, it's just asking for errors.   

[providence13]

Like others have said,

c) He would have to use his +60 OB to parry the attack of the orc he's attacking as you can only parry attacks from the enemy you are attacking. He gets his +40 OB attack.*
This is RAW. RM is deadly
As others have wisely said, you could HR (house rule) it to apply to tactical facing if you think that is too harsh. Or just 2 opponents of same/adjacent facing.. whatever works.
* Keep in mind that this defense is against that enemy for the entire round. Not just one attack. If the orc is Hasted OR Adrenal Speed and now gets 2 attacks (rolls) that round, your DB still applies to each. If instead, the orc was a 6 armed demon (Type V Marilith; D&D) that was Hasted and had a sword in each hand (!), your DB applies vs all her attacks that round.. That is RAW. DB applies vs one combatant for the entire round.

With that said, it could make sense (in my opinion) to apply DB to a tactical facing as a HR.

Yes, parry is an attack action. It takes 60-100%Act to "attack" so it takes 60-100%Act to full parry, or anything in between. -1 OB/%Act less than 60%Act. Using only 80%Act to attack/parry is -20 OB (before the OB/DB split). But you might really need that 20%Act for something else; Instant spell, movement, dismount from horse, draw sword, whatever.

The 2 orcs on either side can still get a Flank Bonus.
Also, the guy should get his normal DB from 3x Qu stat bonus, armor bonus, etc, if you don't allow the frontal facing HR.

Parry is vs one opponent for the entire round. You get 3 possible actions (3 phases) per round, assuming %Act, etc. (Technically 4 actions assuming any leftover %Act after the 3 phases can be end of round movement.)

I've heard some people use this or something similar..
b) He would have to divide the OB bonus used to increase the DB. In this example, and assuming he shares equally his OB against the 3 orcs, would get +30 DB against each of them and would get a +40 OB attack against one of them

RM is a great tool kit.

[jaranka]

* Keep in mind that this defense is against that enemy for the entire round. Not just one attack. If the orc is Hasted OR Adrenal Speed and now gets 2 attacks (rolls) that round, your DB still applies to each. If instead, the orc was a 6 armed demon (Type V Marilith; D&D) that was Hasted and had a sword in each hand (!), your DB applies vs all her attacks that round.. That is RAW. DB applies vs one combatant for the entire round.

Could you point out where this is said in the book? It is my understanding that you may only parry a number of attacks equal to the number of attacks you could make that round.

And to the OP, I would be careful with house ruling things before learning the game.  Allowing the players to parry everyone in front of them no matter how many attacks or how many people are in front of them, this "defensive posture" that applies to everyone for the round, was not intended by the rules and will affect balance.  Rather than making up rules like this I think it would be better to just lower the number of foes your party faces.  You as the GM have that power.  It is important to know that RM is deadly (and it intended to be!), and when one side outnumbers the other it is a much greater advantage than it would be in D&D.

[Jacinto Pat]

Or give your PC's a handful of meat shield NPC's but that's more paperwork while trying to learn...

[yammahoper]

A few notes if you go with defensive posture,

Parry is applied against up to three foes that attack from the front.  Parry IS applied against all attacks they might make (forgoing some sort of special surprise attack designed to counter parry). 

Additional attackers over three, such as from pike men, do not recieve auto DB increase for parry.  The GM might allow some of the parry DB to be applied.  When this occurs, I demand a mnv, usually Ex Hard or Sheer Folly.  The % achieved on the MM table is the percentage of parry I allow applied against such attacks.

Shields can only be applied against one foe.

2H Weapons still only recieve 1/2 parry value vesus non 2H weapons.

So a fighter with a 5qu mod (Base DB is 15) with a shield parries with 20 of his 80 OB, his DB will be 15+25+20=60 against one foe and 35 against the other two foes.

Mnv'ing for position becomes a major focus of battle.  You can resolve these with Ag mod x3 or appropriate skill.  I find it easier to let the PC make the mnv, with dificulty setermined by the GM.  In the above example, I would declare the PC must make a hard mnv to avoid being outflanked.  He rolls once with result of 100 or higher indicating he is not out flanked.  for every 30 points below 100, I declare another foe out flanks him.  Note that a hard mnv would indicate fairly skilled fighters, like city guard, that are use to fighting together.  Three lesser orcs would be a light mnv, a pack of wolves would be very hard, a pack of wargs medium, etc. 

My experience is that defensive positioning is superior to the RAW in both execution and building tension. 

[LearningTheGame]

Thank you!! All your answers are very helpfull.

Its quite clear now. Rolemaster is death 

RAW you may parry only one opponent and he must be the one you are attacking. Do you wish to get some defense? You have to take an attack action, if you don't...Sorry but no parry and you are dead!!

I really like the HR about parrying all opponents in the 3 hexagons in front of you. Makes a lot of sense and, since you have to split the "OB to DB transfer", it does not unbalance the game.

Lots of thanks!! (Again)

[Fenrhyl Wulfson]

Warn your players : RM is a game were a goblin with a rusted fork can down an experienced character in a single strike (the goblin just have to strike from behind or by surprise). It demands cautious and prepared characters that know how to avoid being surrounded.

[providence13]

* Keep in mind that this defense is against that enemy for the entire round. That is RAW. DB applies vs one combatant for the entire round.

Could you point out where this is said in the book? It is my understanding that you may only parry a number of attacks equal to the number of attacks you could make that round.

jaranka, I have been looking for the source of my convictions.. but haven't found it yet. 
You are absolutely correct in that RMFRP pg 212 under Parrying,
"defender may parry one melee attack each combat round by switching any or all of his OB to DB..."

And this is how my group played it. Then I was corrected on these forums by the powers that be. I swear on my momma's chili it was somebody official.. But I haven't found it yet.


OK, for what it's worth, check out Parrying..
http://www.icewebring.com/errata/rolemaster-rulings/#Combat

These are collected rulings and some are contradictory. If this is the only source of my RAW statement.. then I'm happy to say it's HR.

[markc]

  IIRC, Rasyr a while back came up with some rulings that might have been different from RAW, and more favorable to the players. But having said that I think the new edition will help out on the changes to the rules over the last 10+ years.
MDC

[jaranka]

From the errata:

You may only parry one attack per attack you make. [3/20/00] (see notes below)
A parry is declared against a specific opponent, no matter how many attacks they have. This applies against Two Weapon Combat and Haste. [Tim Dugger 20021027]
Confused? The catch is what the definition of attack is: An attack is defined as “a series of blows from a single facing”. So your hasted, two weapon weilding opponent makes ONE attack (even though it is multiple attack rolls).

Yes I am quite confused, and can certainly see why our RAWs are remembered differently.  I really hope this is cleared up in RMU.

[Marrethiel]

My group of friends and I are preparing a new campaign and, after years playing d&d, decided to give a try to RMFRP.
We are having a hard time trying to understand how the game works, but the most difficult subject is parrying. we find it quite confusing.
Lots of thanks. The game looks great but it's quite complex.

I advise keeping to the RAW for a while before you start house ruling, you will probably find that you'll slip to dnd rules.
One of the major issues is that as DM converting to GM that you'll have to be more careful at what you through at the players. In dnd you can chuck a couple of dozen gobbos at an experienced team and they'll have no issues, RM is obviously different. I suggest you also use a Fate Point system, we use a loose one that allows a reroll. You only get Fate points at the end of an adventure so they are very precious. I have been requoted by the other players in my game for many years for chastising a fellow player for spending one to avoid loosing an arm, "don't spend a Fate Point, I can heal it after combat; just put it in your back pack for now".
One MAJOR thing you need to remember is that RM herbs are basically the equivalent to DnD potions. Make sure one player picks up foraging and cooking. You can then have side adventures for them to gather herbs in dangerous places which will essentially be treasure that they can sell or use!
I think that once your players get used to, parry one attacker, shield on another and pray for the rest that tactics will start to arise. As a player that is predominantly a spell caster I often focus on buffing the party or crowd control (CC). Spells like blade turn or calm and shield are very efficient. Get your party mage to buy the talent Spacial (RoCo1) or if not using that then Spell Mastery so that they can get range self to touch.
Then in your example I would have put either a shield spell or bladeturn or calm on the third critter.
Some examples:
1- Shield* - 1 target, 1 min/level, range 10' - Creates and invisible force shield... subtracts 30 from melee attacks. (RoCo III, 8.61 Power Words, page 60).
3- Blur* - 1 target, 1 min/level, range 10 - subtracts 10 from all attacks.  Note, this effectively grants 30 DB in the case of 3 attackers.
 (Spell Lore 3.2.7, Shield Mastery, page 89)
7 - Bladeturn I - 1 attack, range 100' - Causes 100 to be subtracted from the attack.  (Spell Lore 13.7, Shield Mastery, page 81)
3  - Levitation - Duration 1min/level Range Self (needs Spell Mastery or Spatial Talent) - Allows caster to move up or down vertically 10'/round. (Spell Lore , 14.2 Movement, page 114)
4- Calm - Duration 1min/level Range 100' - Target will take no offensive action, will fight only in self defence.

These last two spells are what in my mind makes RM so great. Spells that are used in slightly  unusual ways to enhance the game. A caster could also use Levitation to buff alies. However, feel free to let the goblin pull out a sling and use it with a reduced OB. If attacking from flying though there should be a Moving Maneuver to stabilise yourself, this should be either raw AG or Flying/Gliding skill.

[markc]

Note some of the spells above have had their descriptions changed in later editions.
MDC

[Turbs]

the first thing to tell your players is .."always parry on the first turn... so you can gauge your enemy"
the second thing to tell your players is "Stuns = Win."
the third thing is  "Reverse Stroke combat manouver is your friend" it allows players to offset flank and rear bonuses that attackers get.

[markc]

  And let them experience each of the three things before the game begins. Being told one thing is ok but experiencing it is another.
MDC

[Cory Magel]

First thing did did when we starting RM as a complete system (we'd used parts of it in D&D already) was run three mock combats.  It taught us a lot.

[Nortti]

It might be good to do fighting practice. You can for example use Random Melee method: http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=9914.msg127394#msg127394

Its an easier way to find out what works and what doesnt instead of getting those PCs killed in fights that confuse players and the new GM.

As we can see, there are a lot of interpretations of the RM combat rules. GMs have found solutions that work and have during years found a balance to the system that works in their game. There are many ways to get it right.

This is how I've done it:
- You can divide parry DB from your OB freely to all sides. If you have OB 100 and you are attacked from all four sides you may divide 4x20 to DB and have 20 DB on all sides. You would still have OB 20 to your attack.
- Attacks from the flanks get +15 and from the rear +20. Surprise gives extra +20.
- If defender is completely surprised he cannot parry.
- Shield applies to only one melee opponent. Shield applies to all missile attacks from the same facing.
- If attacker has multiple attacks same DB applies to all attacks.

In the beginning it might be better to create combat situations that have only limited amount of opponents. Fights can take a long time.

It helps if players understand that its really good to have NPC henchmen, followers or hirelings
as guards to watch their back. For NPCs I just use my own judgement and a single roll to see how they manage in a combat each round or every 3 or so rounds. Writing up every wound NPC gets soon feels like tedious bookkeeping. Just tell players what PCs see. GM rolls D100 for both and if the rolls are very even nothing special happens:  "the young guy with shield and spear that joined you to find those lost mines is watching your back. One of the hooded swordsmen that attacked your camp attacks him but the young lad holds his ground for now." 

I have found RM combat system to be without comparison. I first started by GMing RQ and liked that too. I have played D&D and a lot of other games but the detail and excitement this system brings makes it my favorite to run games.