Topic: ICE -- Zombie of the industry

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

I won't object to six or a dozen new writers. Likewise I won't object to six or a dozen new artists. Or a few more layout gurus. There's plenty of work to go around.

Expect to see some calls for writers (and artists!)  over the next few months for all product lines. If you already have the itch to write, then write an article (any product line) for the Guild Companion magazine. It helps them, it helps us because we can see who can write well, and it helps you because it gives you the discipline to convert and finish the implementation of an idea into an article.

In the meantime, please get your playtesting brains warmed up, your players gathered, dust off the scenario notes, so that when we open the public playtest for Rolemaster, you are ready. This is your chance to get your input into the game before it gets published.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[ob1knorrb]

It's been awhile since I've written anything, if I like what I see with RMU and the revised HARP, I'll probably go back to some of my old articles and update them, and maybe come up with some conversion guidelines along the way, if someone else hasn't done them by then.  I've also got a few partially finished projects/ideas that I've been sitting on for awhile that I might revisit.

Nicholas, are there any plans to update the existing Guild Adventurers to RMU/HARP revised? I've always meant to do up a set of Rolemaster stats to go with my Selkie's Secret adventure, seems like doing them for RMU would make sense.

[GrumpyOldFart]

I won't object to six or a dozen new writers. Likewise I won't object to six or a dozen new artists. Or a few more layout gurus. There's plenty of work to go around.

Expect to see some calls for writers (and artists!)  over the next few months for all product lines. If you already have the itch to write, then write an article (any product line) for the Guild Companion magazine. It helps them, it helps us because we can see who can write well, and it helps you because it gives you the discipline to convert and finish the implementation of an idea into an article.

When I foolishly opened my mouth on the subject up above, I was also assuming a certain quasi-Darwinian selection process. In short, I was thinking a couple of thousand people with opinions on "what's missing from ICE games" may roughly equal a couple of hundred who actually write it down and upload it to the Vault, roughly equal to twenty or so whose work is concise, coherent and useful enough for Guild Companion, and roughly equal to maybe 2 new writers for ICE.

Note my use of the word "assume". I have no idea what the odds are, but yes, I think we can safely assume a culling process. And that's a good thing, so far as I can tell. Get those thousand sucky pieces of work out of the way, to make room for the good stuff.

Also note that I'm pretty sure I still have 990-some of my own thousand yet to go, so please don't think I'm trying to talk down to anyone. Quite the reverse in many cases.

[Guillaume]

While we are spreading on the table things that should be said...

for me the real killers are :

- The perception people have that RM is complex.
- The time it takes to create a character. ( which is why the above wrong perception )
- The lack of support world with regular publications.

these were the historical killers, I'm going to add another one :

- The lack of printed books in shops.

Either ICE stays as a web based editor, selling PDF and will stay as a niche editor, or ICE rebuild the distribution network it needs to be available in shops and have a chance to fill the vacuum left by Wizard when they will fumble again with 5th Ed. ( they already made a great mistake with 4th Ed that was clearly intended as a PnP version of a potential computer game )

Just look at what Paizo does with Pathfinder... The system in itself is not that great, but we' all know it ( D&D 3.5 OGL ), but they regularly publish small books ( adventures, campaign parts, ... ) that are put ahead in shops. I don't think ICE as it is right now has the monetary backing to exactly the same thing, but with the RM revision ( I'm not against it by the way, if you look at the various games that are still around they are at their 4th, 5th or 6th edition, and it's needed to reunite RMSS and RM2 players. )

Solve the killers though the revision with a campaign world that has a real follow up ( monthly for the first year or two at least ), and repair the distribution network so that RM can be found in shops and ICE will be set for another decade.

[egdcltd]

Just look at what Paizo does with Pathfinder... The system in itself is not that great, but we' all know it ( D&D 3.5 OGL ), but they regularly publish small books ( adventures, campaign parts, ... ) that are put ahead in shops. I don't think ICE as it is right now has the monetary backing to exactly the same thing, but with the RM revision ( I'm not against it by the way, if you look at the various games that are still around they are at their 4th, 5th or 6th edition, and it's needed to reunite RMSS and RM2 players. )

One advantage Paizo have is an effectively guaranteed cash flow for their regular products based on the subscription models. They "know" ahead of time the minimum they will make from a product, and that's a huge advantage. Subscribers also get benefits, such as free pdf versions of printed books. It tends to be cheaper printing multiple books than it is a few, so having a minimum base of printed versions probably allows extra to be included in the print runs for normal distribution methods. If, of course, you can find any shops that still send RPG products.

[mistrornge]

Its not just ICE that is having problems getting into shops its nearly all smaller companies. 4e and perhaps Storyteller (whatever that werewolf game is) are all that you see unless you can find a gaming specialty shop.  I imagine its going to get more and more difficult to find printed products as printing companies start to fold.

As far as character creation complexity I think that 4e is about on par with RM. It took me 3-4 hours to create a character the other night as a new player.  The shear amount of choices works against it.

Support for a computer based GM program would go a long way in both character creation and combat support. One that is modular where you can add or remove rules as needed (at least as much as possible). This will help significantly reduce the complaints of complexity.

Fantasy Grounds seems like a whole another thing I need to learn so I haven't bothered. If my group was strewn across the country I might be more energized to learn it.  I think the majority of us play at a table.

[mistrornge]

And if you are going to Gencon you NEED to GM a game.  We need to start small and work our way up.
Since returning to my home town my group of original 3 has taught 5 new players Rolemaster.  Keep the faith!
My attempts to interest others at a local gaming shop fails to get any bites because either people have not heard of the game or have a negative preconception about it.

Still waiting on my Rolemaster! Goblins at the gate to be accepted for Gencon.

[jdale]

I found character making in D&D 4E pretty quick. There are only 17 skills to distribute points to. When you don't worry about making the game support actual roleplaying, the system can be pretty easy. Most of the time is spent reading all the different feats and powers you have to choose between. Which is not very onerous even if you feel the compulsion to read everything. Plus, they have a great piece of software for it, that automatically updates and contains descriptions of everything. Although you need to pay for it to make characters above 3rd level (if I remember correctly). At core, it's about the number of concepts you have to understand to make a character. Race, class, ability scores, skills, feats, powers.

In Rolemaster there are some concepts that are harder to pick up. Not just ability scores but potentials. There are skills but the bonus you get for them depends on the progression. And the balancing act with such a huge skill list takes longer than picking a couple of feats. Even worse if you want to use skills like combat maneuvers where the functional bonus depends on two or three different skills, or weapon styles where you are essentially picking a bunch of feats, but you have to pick all of them right away at first level instead of spreading the choices out over multiple levels. Software helps but I don't think you should write the rules on the assumption that people will use software for character generation.

I am guessing we will see an elimination of the skills/categories division in RMU, which simplifies things and would also reduce the variety of progressions, and hopefully also some culling of the skill lists.

[Wolfhound]

Reprint of part of my post from the "Where will you buy your Rolemaster?" thread, as most of it is directly relevant to this thread as well:
**********
Actual stores selling hard-copies are the way to go in my opinion.  The drawback is that it has been so long since RM products were available through the distribution channels and were actively marketing in any meaningful way.  I know of a game store owner who was burned when the distributor that used to distribute RM products burned many stores, and that some of those stores are reluctant to purchase any products from small-press gaming companies anymore (only stock a couple of the big names).

However, if us fans offer to run sample games in these stores to try to hook potential new fans, Rolemaster may regain the major position that it once had within the RPG industry.  I can remember 25-30 years ago, that the store I purchased most of my gaming stuff from (Hokus Pokus (was a magic and gaming store) in Traverse City Michigan), RM/MERP/SM had just about as much shelf space as TSR products did, and the hard-core gamer's preferred RM due to its flexibility and "heroic" chance of being able to pull off something amazing (or cut-off something via an amazingly stupid or risky move, which were still just as fun from a gaming standpoint).  And Jack (the owner, unfortunately he passed away quite a few years ago now, but last I knew someone else had purchased the store and it was still operating, but I don't live in the area anymore so rarely stop by) did a lot to support his gaming customers.

Lets start to get the word out to these gaming stores and try to encourage them to make purchases of these products and offer to run sample game sessions in these stores.  Also, it would be wise for ICE to try to provide some sort of marketing materials (posters or banners) to such stores (I know this costs money to do, but if it is done correctly it will dramatically increase both product awareness and sales and thus will pay for itself).

To be honest, in talking with the owners of such stores that I know, they say that a very large portion of RPG purchases are spur of the moment purchases, and as such they need to have hard-copies sitting on the shelves that grab peoples attention.  While those of us who have been gaming and have been RM fans for decades will buy such products in whatever form we can get our hands on them, for ICE and RMU to be truly successful new fans need to be brought on-board and the best way to do this is a combination of attention grabbing hard-copies on store shelves and us experienced fans actually running sample games for people in such store environments.

Hell, I'd personally be willing to travel a fair distance to run sample games at stores outside of my own area (as well as at gaming conventions) to help re-launch RM (or rather launch RMU) and grow the fan-base of RM followers.
**********

[John @ ICE]

I'm going to wade in even though Thom and Nicholas have done a good job of commenting already.

Zombie - there are arguments against the post that kicked this off, but they are a best weak or wrong.

And, since they are mostly right, that was why a change was made.

Now, here is the thing.  I re-read that post three times, and I'm still not sure what Stormbringer wants.  I think I know, but not sure.

What he doesn't want is new rules.  Well, if you check my recent proclamation and follow up comments, I totally acknowledge the fact that for experienced players happy with their tweaked, home brew systems, you dont need to buy them. You don't.  It would help the community if you did, not only financially, but so as a community we all rally around a standard, but clearly not necessary.  Really, the standard is to plant a guide pole, cast dispel confusion for all new comers to ICE and get all newbies on one standard where we can successfully provide alot of support.  Trying to support THREE main versions of RM is idiotic.

What I think he is driving at is (i) support and (ii) a little harder to define but "creativity". But I think the creativity he mentions is probably, really support.

Now, its very easy to be fond about the old days when ICE had MERP, the greatest fantasy setting.  You really cant screw it up if you tried and not only did ICE not screw it up, I think its still the best system out there with great, "creative" support products.

Look, seriosuly, I am a player, fan and consumer first. I'm new to the game company business in a sense, and let me tell you, from a business persepctive, it sucks.  If I was doing this to have a sucessful business, I would have quit long ago.

BUT as a hobby, fan, gamer, GM, player, creator, - its GREAT!

So, I am totally on your page. 

BUT first, We NEED and MUST HAVE a unified RM not from a business perspective, but from a community perspective. We have to have it if we are going to expand participation.

But, really for existing fans, its not necessarily "necessary".

What then, is?

I think back to what Storm is saying;

Creative (and therefore I think this means high quality) support product.

I assume this means:

1) More thrown into SW, more into cyradon in terms of campaign materials.

2) Adventures of two kinds:
(a) setting specific to SW and Cyradon
(b) generic

3)e-support
(a) Gm tools
(b) character tool
(c) or full VTT (which can be used to manage your table top game OR for remote gaming)

4) Maybe it also means
(a) idea generation - we get this from the guild companion and maybe with enough fan particpation, this can expand. and it can cover adventures, npc, treasures, traps etc.
(b) rules options - think we will have the optionality well covered from official products, but RM is going to stay a plug and play system so in theory this could be infinite even if much might stay unofficial. but thats what it is all about.

BUT this is me assuming...Storm - what do YOU have in mind? What do others WANT? What am I missing?

[yammahoper]

The fact that you now see one product line for RM is the ONLY WAY says to me the chaff is cut away and the first steps on the only road to possible success have been taken.

Who ever made that decision; employee of the year.

[egdcltd]

My personal opinion is that what's needed are regular releases of new content, preferably on at least a bi-monthly basis. One or two items a year really isn't enough for those who lack time or skill to make their own.

[RandalThor]

My personal opinion is that what's needed are regular releases of new content, preferably on at least a bi-monthly basis. One or two items a year really isn't enough for those who lack time or skill to make their own.

I would be fine with 1 every 3-months, but more is better. And Quality, Quality, quality. Pretty-pictures, awesome maps, cool & fun NPCs and creatures, and interesting and world/setting-involved adventures.

when ICE had MERP, the greatest fantasy setting

Shut your mouth!  HERESY, I tell you. MERP is good, but it is not the best. (I am sure it is someone's best, likely many someones.....) For myself, the honor goes to The Wheel of Time. (Then Gamma World, then Dark Sun.)

[yammahoper]

Well...Wheel of Time is okay.  Hardly as iconic as Middle Earth or as detailed in its development.  IMO, Middle Earth wins hands down.  But then after the book with the Bowl of weather control and the far to obvious, not to mention drawn out, story telling, I quit the series...book six or seven I think.  Never did finish it, never have wanted to, which says all about how good I thought it was.  For that matter, if i really like a series, I will reread it from time to time.  I never want to read about Rand el whatshisname again.

[RandalThor]

For that matter, if i really like a series, I will reread it from time to time.  I never want to read about Rand el whatshisname again.

Funny. 

I just got done re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-reading them in prep for the last book, A Memory of Light. I admit, they can get wordy, but Tolkein can't? I just like the characters better - and Channeling*, it is much better than the "regular" magic most settings have, including ME (which the RM spell system never did fit). And tolkein can read like a history book, which is why I have never been able to read anything other than the Lord of the Rings trilogy and The Hobbit. (I don't think it should be 3 films, 2 I can see, but three?!? No way.)


*The HARP magic system can work great for Channeling.

[vroomfogle]

To each their own.  I'm partial to Midkemia myself

[pastaav]

To each their own.  I'm partial to Midkemia myself

+1

[Arioch]

Well...Wheel of Time is okay.  Hardly as iconic as Middle Earth or as detailed in its development.  IMO, Middle Earth wins hands down.

Howard's Hyborian Age is the winner for me. Nothing says Adventure like a Zamoran thief, a dreaded Stygian sorcerer or an Hyrkanian rider!

[intothatdarkness]

I always had a fondness for Coramonde, even though it never made it into a game.

[markc]

I always had a fondness for Coramonde, even though it never made it into a game.

Thanks for that I am going to Powlles Books and I am going to see if I can find a copy.
MDC