Topic: Non-physical Manifestation rule questions

[providence13]

The discussion on Invisibility casting shadows made me think about other spells.

1. I wonder if Conveyance (Delving Ways) allows you to see astral beings?

2. Can the Displacement spell give a bonus to notice other Displaced people?

3. Does Flattening (Magent/Mystic Base) let you see other 2-d objects/people. Rules for 2-d combat seem hard to find.
Can't be flanked.. Can't be attacked except from frontal attacks..
Penalty to peripheral vision for caster; less rounded head would give you "wall-eye vision".
What is the %Act to turn sideways? I'd probably say it takes little effort (0%Act), but it's one of your 3 actions for the round.

It definitely shouldn't allow you to attack and then just turn sideways to avoid reprisal. If you can apply OB to them, they can also attack you.

[yammahoper]

It definitely shouldn't allow you to attack and then just turn sideways to avoid reprisal. If you can apply OB to them, they can also attack you.

Why not?  This is exactly the type of ability I expect a villian to use to make a fighter type respect, fear AND come up with a way outside of melee, were the fighter already dominates.  Mages have dispells or fireball, coldball, vacume or any other area affect attack to deal with mr two dimension, not to mention the basic force spell.  So a balanced group probably won't miss a beat, but of the challenge to the arms users is to much fun to miss.  Why deny you arms players the joy of thinking up ways to thwart the villian.  Image rpgs without chalk dust bumbs, feather strewn floors, net traps, pr luring the over confident villian to his doom while facing repeated shock, fire and ice bolts, hurled plates, pitchforks and anything else potentially lethal on the walls or floor.  An unfair advantage is an invitation to get inventful. 

[rdanhenry]

Sure, turn sideways. I can still see you. You can't be standing exactly perpendicular to the line of sight from *both* my eyes. Binocular vision for the win. And every cut passes completely through. A slash that would normally leave a cut on the thigh would sever the leg. If you really wanted to be realistic, anyone going flat would need to avoid combat absolutely.

[yammahoper]

Sure, turn sideways. I can still see you. You can't be standing exactly perpendicular to the line of sight from *both* my eyes. Binocular vision for the win. And every cut passes completely through. A slash that would normally leave a cut on the thigh would sever the leg. If you really wanted to be realistic, anyone going flat would need to avoid combat absolutely.

flat characters take normal damage.  it is magic after all, not science.  if it were science, all his organs would fail.

[jaranka]

I don't think the intent of the Flattening spell was to give one a bonus in combat.  Being 2 dimensional seems like an awkward thing to be already, let alone in combat.  And since it would seem absurd to put any rationale behind the topic, all we have to go on is intent.  And judging by the other spells on the list, and the name of the list, "Escapes", it makes sense that its intent was to avoid confrontation, not enhance it.

How do you even affect anything when you're 2 dimensional? That's like us trying to touch time.  And if you're literally 2 dimensional, I don't even know if you could be sliced through.  At least not from a perfectly parallel frontal attack.  Yeah that's silly.  IMHO, it's just a goofy but cool spell and should be treated as such.

[providence13]

Thanks for all the responses.

Mystic Base Hiding 13th lvl 10min/lvl
Magent Base Escapes 18th lvl 10 min/lvl
That's long duration!
"has 2 dimensions.. can't be seen from the side"

I agree that the theme of both Lists is hiding/merging. But everything on the caster is 2d. Monomolecular wire/blades (in some sci-fi settings or obsidian points in real life) are incredibly sharp. It seems that a 2d blade would be sharp enough to attack. Although I understand how someone could rule that the caster can't open a 3d door with a 2d hand, they could swing a sword, IMHO.

What happens if a 2d caster fires a bow? Does the arrow become 3d after leaving his 'aura'?

Hmmm.. I might make the spell require concentration (50%Act) to maintain 2d, but you have the potential effect for the duration. That could solve some of the problems if you don't like the combat potential.

[rdanhenry]

Sure, turn sideways. I can still see you. You can't be standing exactly perpendicular to the line of sight from *both* my eyes. Binocular vision for the win. And every cut passes completely through. A slash that would normally leave a cut on the thigh would sever the leg. If you really wanted to be realistic, anyone going flat would need to avoid combat absolutely.

flat characters take normal damage.  it is magic after all, not science.  if it were science, all his organs would fail.

I'm simply pointing out that the suggested opposite of immunity is counter to actuality, hence the qualifier "If you really wanted to be realistic...". I see no reason to bother with any form of combat adjustment.

[rdanhenry]

I agree that the theme of both Lists is hiding/merging. But everything on the caster is 2d. Monomolecular wire/blades (in some sci-fi settings or obsidian points in real life) are

Three-dimensional - and pure fantasy if anything but the leading edge of the blade is monomolecular - what makes a sharp edge effective is largely that it is a wedge; if edge-sharpness in itself were decisive, papercuts would be a deadly peril.

Anything a 2-D person does has no force behind it. He has no significant momentum because he has no significant mass. If he wasn't essentially massless, he'd sink into the earth and disappear forever, which wouldn't be a very useful spell to cast on yourself.

[markc]

  In most cases I have seen it ruled that 2D creatures cannot attack but can be harmed by area attack spells.
 I also agree with rdanhenery, that 2D blades would have very low momentum (p=mv) so cutting through things would be tough. Not impossible but IMHO would require some other mechanism to help them cut through things.

MDC

[providence13]

It's funny that this hasn't come up before with the long history of RM and the rather long spell duration..

Thanks everyone with the help on Flattening.

Does anyone have experience with Conveyance or Displacement?

[markc]

 IMHO Displacement is an effect that affects others and it is not something physical that affects you. I have seen Displacement ruled that it does not work against blind opponents or opponents that do not rely heavily on vision.
 So no IMHO it does not and should not give you any bonus vs other displaced beings.
MDC