Topic: Another Dragon Breath Question

[Zhaleskra]

With breath weapon fumbles discussed here: http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=6558.msg86343#msg86343, I have a slightly different Spit weapon question.

That is: what stats does the dragon use for their breath weapon. Under combat it would be St+Ag, and under Mystic Arts it would be Class Stat+SD. In the core rulebook, it says to treat it like the spell.

I ask because I'm making a custom dragon for a one-shot adventure. 550 pt buy Stats, 100 DP at 1st level, 50 DP at each additional level Air Dragon, 20th level Warrior Mage.

Thank you.

[GrumpyOldFart]

Hmmm... I'm not official, but depending on the premise of your dragon's breath weapon:

1. It's a magical effect, or
2. It's a biological effect that has similar results to a magical effect

If it were me, I'd either use 1) Magic stat + Ag or 2) Ag + SD, possibly Ag + Ag. This is a first impression, and having not followed the link and read what's there yet, I may change my mind after I've read it.

[Thom @ ICE]

Dragon Breath is described as a spell effect in both books and uses PP according to M:aFG.

There are no references that would make this a Combat skill, therefore the Mystic Arts interpretation is correct and for the purposes of what you are doing, have the dragon develop ranks in Elemental Ball spell with the Stat Bonus from Re+SD.

If you want to make Magic and Dragon Breath major aspects of the creature, then also make sure to use some of those DP to add Eloquence, Skill Specialization, Spatial Skills, Potency, Affinity of Air.  This combination will add +40 and increase the attack size and doubles the range of the attack.  With additional "Scaling" you can easily beef up the potency further.

Note - For an Air Dragon, I would also consider using Elemental Bolt instead of Ball for the relevant spell envisioning it as a lightning bolt attack rather than a ball of energy which explodes to fill a radius.
 

[Zhaleskra]

I spent a lot of my dragon's DP for the Nearly Hopeless Boss Fight (It's HARP, even if the PCs mess up and get in the fight, they COULD win) increasing her stats. Plus I think I put her 3 +10s from her Warrior Mage weapon bonus into it, and 3 of her free Combat ranks into it. That's easy enough to adjust though.

For my adventure, which has now been added to the U-Con gaming convention schedule, dragons are the first line of defense for the island. Without much of a navy, area affects fit my theme better. Especially with that Tiny Electrical Critical setting wooden ships on fire.

So dragons can scale their breath weapons without regard to spell sphere? Interesting. And using it as a spell skill would give her more than 10 shots per day.

My currently unnamed dragon was finished with 1 DP remaining.

[Thom @ ICE]

The Core book provided enough information to create a custom dragon, but the Core rules assume a Fighter profession and 75 stats across the board.  The Racial Stat Bonuses that were included in the core rules are actually very understated in regards to the non-physical stats. The IQ section even states that they are as intelligent as humans - which is significantly understated from what I have always considered for dragons.   

The M:aFG specifically states that Dragon Breath uses Power Points so I treat it as a spell, which would prevent using the Warrior Mage Combat ranks on it.  At 20th level you can already hit 63 ranks in standard DP which is far beyond the point where you are getting full benefit from those DP and the base bonus just for ranks is +113.  IMO, use the Warrior Mage weapon bonus to add to the claws attack.

Keep in mind with the scaling that Elemental Ball should already take 2 rounds to cast unless the Dragon's Breath is executed with reduced casting (due to PP 6) and scaling will result in increased effects, but decreased bonus on the roll as per normal elemental spell resolution (scaling beyond 10PP will result in additional rounds beyond that).  The only difference that is clearly stated is that a dragon's breath attack will result in dragon's breath - though it may miss or even fumble, but it will not fail.

Creatures like Dragons are probably too unique to be covered with the broad brush version presented in the Core rules.  Your method of creating from scratch will yield a far better fit to your own needs, and provide a truly viable Big Boss or even Lieutenant for your campaign.

Note: It also then allows you to build a non-"dragon breath" dragon, which is also common in many mythologies.

[Zhaleskra]

I made some of the stat decisions based on her scale and eye colors: dull gray, and yellow respectively. Both the core and M:aFG were used in her creation. Which is why her 80 racial attribute adjustments are not the standard dragon array.

She has:
St: 100 (+15 racial)
Co: 60 (+20 racial)
Ag: 95 (+15 racial)
Qu: 80 (+5 racial)
SD: 60 (+5 racial)
Re: 95 (+10 racial)
In: 80 (+5 racial)
Pr: 60 (+5 racial) - relatively low presence because I think she'd be somewhat hard to see on an ocean locked island, with the nearest other land masses hundreds of miles away.

13 ranks in Bladeturn, she only uses Increase Modifier (-100) and Increase Range (any visible melee attack within 100').

12 ranks in Deflection, she only uses Increase Deflection (-100)

9 ranks in Guardian Blades, she only uses Increase Size.

I can easily make your suggested skill changes.

[Thom @ ICE]

Interesting the way you went with a 100 St stat, but reduced the base racial to +15 (from +40), but on the other hand went with a 60 Co stat, but increased the base racial to +20 (from +10).  The way you have set this up, this dragon is one of the strongest of her race, but barely above the norm in terms of Co, and incredibly high in Reasoning, but average Pr and SD.  If you're just looking at the dragon as unique and not compared to the norm for her race, then I would increase the racials for Reasoning, Strength and Agility, and settle their scores in those areas to 75 or so, while increasing the scores for Presence, Self-Discipline and Constitution and decreasing those bonuses - but either way it is the same unless you intend to have this dragon reappear as part of the story line in the future, or other members of her race appear in the future.

Note - When it comes to Presence I would normally expect very high racial bonus for dragons (the +5 racial would be pretty low IMO even though it is the same as what Core lists) because I expect a dragon to be able to generate overall awe and fear from most creatures with little effort.  Agility however suggests great manual dexterity, and while Dragons are not clumsy, I have a hard time envisioning them carrying out picking locks, doing acrobatics, or feats of climbing.  I can buy into the rest, but those two I would suggest taking another look at - especially if you are planning to have the appearance of this dragon striking fear into the navy as they approach.

[Zhaleskra]

I actually want people to underestimate her. After all, what's the quickest way to lose a battle?

She probably won't appear again, but I have had people request sequels to one shots I've run in other systems.

I might make a short sheet for the hatchling, stats, a little skill in Endurance and Resistances, but that's it.

[GrumpyOldFart]

The IQ section even states that they are as intelligent as humans - which is significantly understated from what I have always considered for dragons.

Without going into the specifics of which rule/monster writeup where says what, and whether you agree with the author, I had always taken it as given that a dragon who was no smarter than the average human would be considered "slow" at best by his peers.

A party that goes dragon hunting should be spotted days before they get to the lair, the treasure should have already been moved elsewhere when they get there, they should have gone through a couple of days of ambushes and dirty tricks by the armored, flying genius over their heads, and when they get to the lair it should basically be a trap. No food, no water, no treasure, no good ways out, and a dragon waiting for you to stick your head out the door. He should also know just about every trick you're able to pull through having seen you pull it already when you were, say...
...trapped between the forest fire and the cliff face yesterday...
...or the night before that when he bombed your campfire with dragon crap from a great height...
...or the day before that when you were all on the trail that goes up a canyon wall and found out that he'd put a waiting lightning bolt at one of the trickiest spots...

 

[Zhaleskra]

...or the night before that when he bombed your campfire with dragon crap from a great height...

Why are draconic toileting habits so iconic? This has to be at least the third time something I've read or heard involved a dragon relieving him or herself. One was a tale of a party that wanted to see a dragon, so the GM had them see one taking a crap. There's also "The Curse of the Incontinent Dragon" adventure. And now this.

[GrumpyOldFart]

I'd never heard of either of those. I just thought in terms of, "If I was a multiton flying creature and wanted to make every moment a misery for you guys on the ground, how would I go about it? Without putting myself to any danger or inconvenience, for preference."

Comparatively high altitude bombing is an obvious suggestion, the question becomes what you use for bombs. The suggestion above pretty much assumes that bombing your camp with the remains of one of your own horses isn't one of his options... yet.

 

It's like catapulting plague victims and the remains of those who tried to escape back over the city walls during a siege. Yeah, so it's a disgusting solution, it's still an obvious one.

[Zhaleskra]

For your viewing displeasure: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/alex/Handbooks/WWWPlots/pl38.html

[GrumpyOldFart]

For that matter if the party is on rocky ground, a half ton boulder dropped from a few thousand feet might be better still. Can you say shrapnel? Trees blown down by the shockwave?

[Thom @ ICE]

When it comes to Draconic tactics, first and foremost in my mind is usually a bit of arrogance mixed with great might and great knowledge.  IMO the dragon would not know about the approaching party because generally speaking, he wouldn't be that worried about it until it got close.  It wouldn't move the lair because the lair itself would be the best possible location to address the needs of both the dragon and holding the treasure, and the natural arrogance that would also suggest that there is little to worry about.

That all being said, the dragon should have maxed out perception, and therefore when the party approaches nearby, they should receive a flyby with either falling boulders or trees to discourage the approaching group. If the party continues to approach, then the dragon would bring a dragon breath attack or two and then look to set up an ambush if necessary.

As for the "toilet" attacks - not needed and IMO not something I would ever include in my campaign. 

[Zhaleskra]

In my one-shot, it's more like the dragon seeking her child, and if necessary, the PCs. Motherly concern/wrath angle with her.

I've started a small sheet for the hatchling: layperson stats in order, DP by stats. Not going to give the kid too much, a rank in each resistance, a rank in endurance, maybe a rank in Stalking & Hiding. Maybe 1/3 the dragon bonus endurance, no survival instinct, perhaps Tough Hide (minor).

[jasonbrisbane]

IIRC, there is an Elemental Cone spell and I gave that spell to the dragon as a blood talent, but usable unlimited times per day. Each use was exactly like a casting except the dragon breathed the fire since it is a magical creature unto itself. Also gave it elem bolt and ball too. The dragon can scale up the spells as per the book but couldn't fastcast. This emenulated a std dragon attack (at least what I believe to be std) very well!

It had to use pps to use the breath weapons and the scaling options. Thus it realistically can only have a set number of attempts per day.

[Pat]

I would consider giving Dragons Fire (Cold, Acid etc) breath as an innate ability rather than as a spell ability. They could breathe x amount of times per day and the size of the breath would be in relation to the size of the dragon. (i.e. tiny attack for baby dragons up to huge attacks for an elder dragon.)

This would mean that they can breathe each round if required up to their daily maximum but would not be able to scale the breath. (i.e. a baby dragon could only breathe a tiny attack.)

To me this would make more sense than PP's (yes the system uses PP's in MaFG but I'm personally not a fan of this).  By making it an innate ability you wouldn't need to worry about spell casting and you would be able to cast an instantaneous spell while breathing (This would make the Dragon a more formidable foe.) and OB could be calculated as a weapon skill.

How I'd probably work it out is:
Breath attack 1xday for lvl 1-3 then an extra attack every 4 lvl.
Tiny attack - Baby Dragon, Small attack - Young Dragon, Medium attack - Adolescencant Dragon, Large Attack - Standard Dragon, Huge Attack - Elder Dragon.

[Zhaleskra]

In HARP Core, dragon breath can be used half-their-level times per day. So a 20th level dragon would have 10 shots. Basing it on the spell helps break the shot limit, and in my dragon's case breaks spell sphere restrictions. Which I have put in () on her character sheet after listing Mage sphere "Screw the Rules, I'm a Dragon! or for the Furries: <expletive> You! I'm a Dragon!

Personally, I like the idea of PCs seeing the build up (spark/"pilot light"/fumes/fog) on round 1, lightning/fire/acid/ice ball on round 2, elemental explosion on round 3. The bad thing is, this gives the PCs 4 seconds to get out of the way.

As for the hatchling, I want him to be trivial to kill, but still have a bit of the dragon abilities. Maybe 150 Endurance bonus instead of the adult 300, Tough Hide (Minor)?

[Thom @ ICE]

Definitely an alternative, and one that works a bit better in terms of it being an anatomical ability rather than manipulating elemental energy.  I was simply going with the current official version in Core Rules and M:aFG.

Note - This would not be the only thing in the way monsters are handled in Core Rules and M:aFG that I don't agree with.

[GrumpyOldFart]

Which I have put in () on her character sheet after listing Mage sphere "Screw the Rules, I'm a Dragon! or for the Furries: <expletive> You! I'm a Dragon!

I don't see any reason why you should expect a dragon's "spell spheres" to conform to everyone else's. In terms of how their heads work, I'd expect dragons to be far different from any kind of humanoid, which is all the kinds of creatures the spell spheres as written are designed for. The draconic equivalent of a "cleric" or "mage" would probably involve a quite different mindset, and thus quite different groupings of skills and spells.

I can only imagine with horror what the draconic equivalent of a "harper" would be.