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Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => RMC/RM2 => Topic started by: mark99913 on September 16, 2017, 06:17:33 PM
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It amazes me on how many spell using character classes exist in RMC. I've got no problem with non/semi spell users having an edge over spell users with heavy restrictions for weapons and armor in combat (as they should up to a point), but after looking over spell casting rules and restrictions I hafta say it's laughable. A spell caster must spend 2 rounds for preparation and a 3rd round for effect just to cast a spell equal to the caster's level. If he/she takes even 1 pt. of damage before the spell takes effect then that's all that time wasted. Once the spell takes effect he/she must roll for spell failure and last but not least the target's RR and there are so many ways to get good RR bonuses. I can understand restrictions like that for a spell that does a D critical to several targets in an area of effect (even then that might not be possible without hurting allies), but for a spell caster to go through all that crap for a spell that does a B critical to a single target at close range is unreasonable. I'm sure that a mage can turn invisible and not risk getting attacked during spell preparation (just 1 example how spells can be used in conjunction to create powerful effects), but I compare that mage's effect on a battle after 3+ rounds to what a rogue or fighter can do during that time and it seems to me that many spell users are more trouble than they're worth. A spell user only has so many power points and their PP's can be exhausted after just 1 battle unless they are conservative. I would like to conserve my PP's as a spell user and use weapons part of the time, but DP costs for weapon ranks are just so high. Even a non-spell user can spend points on Staves/Wands/Read Runes to use spell items without paying a ridiculous cost in DP's.
I could go on and on about this, but I'm gonna stop for now. If there are any optional rules in the companions to help fix these problems I'm gonna find em. If not I'm gonna start changing things on my own. Any input on comparing advantages/disadvantages of non-spell using classes and spell using classes w/heavy arms & armor restrictions are welcome.
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Semi and pure/hybrids become much more powerfull at higher levels!
An lvl 3 magician needs a lvl 3 fighter as bodygaurd, when they reach lvl 10+ the table turns!
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If he/she takes even 1 pt. of damage before the spell takes effect then that's all that time wasted.
What gives you that idea? There are no rules for damage interrupting casting -- it would take a stun or some other serious injury to prevent a spell caster completing their spell.
For the rest, yes, spell users are somewhat limited at low levels. However, consider that:
* Instant spells don't require preparation.
* As the caster levels, lower level spells require less preparation.
* If low PP are a concern (and, in RM2, they can be very low), you can make multipliers more common, give everyone (or just pure and hybrids) 10PP to begin with (this will dramatically increase the staying power of low level spell users without dramatically enhancing them at higher levels), or give +1 or 2 or 3 PP per level.
Also, consider that low level RM characters tend to be quite weak in general. If this is a problem, you can always start at higher level (I like 4 in RMSS).
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We used to use a house rule that allowed spellcasters to use their spellcasting stat bonus to the Extraordinary Spell Failure rolls. This made spellcasting a bit faster and easier. We did think casters were too weak at lower levels (though as noted remember than instant spells require no prep).
If that isn't enough, you can always do what RMU is doing: spells equal to or below a caster's level require no prep (even non-instantaneous spells), and spells above the caster's level impose a -20 penalty per level above the caster. Note that this will make casters more powerful in general; but it makes for a much more balanced game at low levels IMHO.
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Semi and pure/hybrids become much more powerfull at higher levels!
An lvl 3 magician needs a lvl 3 fighter as bodygaurd, when they reach lvl 10+ the table turns!
Yes that makes sense. Low level is mainly what I'm worried about. A campaign I'm thinking about joining only allows 1 level of spell/per list/per level of the character so I would have very little offensive ability at low level. A bodyguard or sticking with a group is what I'd prolly hafta do.
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If he/she takes even 1 pt. of damage before the spell takes effect then that's all that time wasted.
What gives you that idea? There are no rules for damage interrupting casting -- it would take a stun or some other serious injury to prevent a spell caster completing their spell.
For the rest, yes, spell users are somewhat limited at low levels. However, consider that:
* Instant spells don't require preparation.
* As the caster levels, lower level spells require less preparation.
* If low PP are a concern (and, in RM2, they can be very low), you can make multipliers more common, give everyone (or just pure and hybrids) 10PP to begin with (this will dramatically increase the staying power of low level spell users without dramatically enhancing them at higher levels), or give +1 or 2 or 3 PP per level.
Also, consider that low level RM characters tend to be quite weak in general. If this is a problem, you can always start at higher level (I like 4 in RMSS).
Hmmm I didn't realize that damage alone wouldn't interrupt spell casting. Even still with an armor type of 1-4 it wouldn't be that difficult for a fighter to cause a crit. I'm thinking that in order for an Icebolt spell(6th lvl spell) to be considered a class II spell the caster would need to be 9th level and even on a good roll an "A" or "B" critical would be the likely result and would still require 1 rnd. of preparation. He/she would need to be very lucky to do any better, but a 9th level Fighter could easily do better than that against a low armor type.
I'm going to do some play testing combat with characters I'm making under different conditions and in different circumstances and see how it plays out.
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We used to use a house rule that allowed spellcasters to use their spellcasting stat bonus to the Extraordinary Spell Failure rolls. This made spellcasting a bit faster and easier. We did think casters were too weak at lower levels (though as noted remember than instant spells require no prep).
If that isn't enough, you can always do what RMU is doing: spells equal to or below a caster's level require no prep (even non-instantaneous spells), and spells above the caster's level impose a -20 penalty per level above the caster. Note that this will make casters more powerful in general; but it makes for a much more balanced game at low levels IMHO.
Ok, I think RMFRP does spell failure that way. In RMFRP a spell can be cast with no prep, but gives a serious penalty for doing so. I've seen RMU mentioned several times, but I'm not familiar with it. Is it a different rule system?
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RMU (Rolemaster Unified) is the latest edition of Rolemaster. It is currently in the testing ('beta') phase. You can download it from these forums free of charge if you want to playtest it.
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I'm rusty on the exact wording. Class III spell takes 2 rounds to prepare, 1 to cast. That is the spell caster's current level, and the next 2 levels down. So for a level 5 caster, spells at Level 5, 4, 3 are class III spells.
However, a class II spell is Caster's level - 3. Level 5 caster takes 1 round prep, 1 round to cast a level 2 spell. Firing off a spell every other round is similar to an archer getting off an arrow every other round.
At this point, the spell caster can also "hip shoot" a spell and cast it with slight penalty without full rounds of prep time. We would have spell casters in our group hip shooting Class II spells all the time. They were so good at the spells skills, the negative hardly ever impacted their casting ability. Now spell casters are getting off higher level spells, every round still at only level 4 or 5.
Spell casters also have the ability to "over charge" a spell to increase damage, duration, or other aspects of a spell.
Spell casters can be very dangerous in RM but they have to know their own limitations. Do not go into battle in the vanguard. Even while prepping a spell, the caster isn't standing still like a statue waiting to get whacked in the head. He has some movement ability and should be ducking behind cover if possible and has some DB to offset attacks from what SHOULD be other lower level characters. A level 1 mage shouldn't be fighting a level 5 fighter. IT's easy to break a caster's concentration on a spell prep... but it's also difficult to break a caster's concentration on a skill prep. (Sounds weird, I know, but it's not as easy to break a caster's concentration as it sounds.)
If the spell caster is crafted well, a level 1 mage can have access to four spell lists, additional PP if the GM allows the optional skill - Power Point Development, hopefully a background option on the Special Items category that gives a PP adder or PP multiplier, and a background option or two on the Skill at Magic table. At level 1, the mage is pretty decent.
Just remember Rule #1: Take out the spell caster first!
And of course Rule #0: Protect the spell caster first!!!
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At this point, the spell caster can also "hip shoot" a spell and cast it with slight penalty without full rounds of prep time.
"Slight"? According to RAW, the ESF for taking off two rounds of preparation is 50, meaning at least 50% of rolling on the spell failure table at +150, and even the ESF for taking off one round is 25, meaning 25% of rolling on the spell failure table at +75. Reading the spell failure table, even for a non-attack spell, there is a total of 37.5% in the first case for the caster to just put himself out of activity for hours, and a total of 23.75% in the second case of stunning himself and of 1.225% to put himself out of activity for hours. I don't call that "slight"…
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If he/she takes even 1 pt. of damage before the spell takes effect then that's all that time wasted.
What gives you that idea? There are no rules for damage interrupting casting -- it would take a stun or some other serious injury to prevent a spell caster completing their spell.
For the rest, yes, spell users are somewhat limited at low levels. However, consider that:
* Instant spells don't require preparation.
* As the caster levels, lower level spells require less preparation.
* If low PP are a concern (and, in RM2, they can be very low), you can make multipliers more common, give everyone (or just pure and hybrids) 10PP to begin with (this will dramatically increase the staying power of low level spell users without dramatically enhancing them at higher levels), or give +1 or 2 or 3 PP per level.
Also, consider that low level RM characters tend to be quite weak in general. If this is a problem, you can always start at higher level (I like 4 in RMSS).
I've been trying to find rules on how a spell could be interrupted and I can't find any. Some results from criticals are obvious like getting knocked unconscious and going into coma which would definitely stop a spell cast, but as far as stun goes I don't think that would interrupt spells. Stun would prevent an attack, halve OB for a parry, and -50 on maneuvers. I'm assuming an attack does not include spell casting. I'm thinking that the stunned caster might get -50 on his/her spell failure roll, but could still attempt the spell cast.
This brings up another question...If a caster spent 1+ rounds preparing a spell and for some reason he/she decided to do something different instead of casting the spell he/she prepared, could the same spell be cast later on without preparing the spell all over again assuming he/she doesn't try to cast a different spell?
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If he/she takes even 1 pt. of damage before the spell takes effect then that's all that time wasted.
What gives you that idea? There are no rules for damage interrupting casting -- it would take a stun or some other serious injury to prevent a spell caster completing their spell.
For the rest, yes, spell users are somewhat limited at low levels. However, consider that:
* Instant spells don't require preparation.
* As the caster levels, lower level spells require less preparation.
* If low PP are a concern (and, in RM2, they can be very low), you can make multipliers more common, give everyone (or just pure and hybrids) 10PP to begin with (this will dramatically increase the staying power of low level spell users without dramatically enhancing them at higher levels), or give +1 or 2 or 3 PP per level.
Also, consider that low level RM characters tend to be quite weak in general. If this is a problem, you can always start at higher level (I like 4 in RMSS).
I've been trying to find rules on how a spell could be interrupted and I can't find any. Some results from criticals are obvious like getting knocked unconscious and going into coma which would definitely stop a spell cast, but as far as stun goes I don't think that would interrupt spells. Stun would prevent an attack, halve OB for a parry, and -50 on maneuvers. I'm assuming an attack does not include spell casting. I'm thinking that the stunned caster might get -50 on his/her spell failure roll, but could still attempt the spell cast.
This brings up another question...If a caster spent 1+ rounds preparing a spell and for some reason he/she decided to do something different instead of casting the spell he/she prepared, could the same spell be cast later on without preparing the spell all over again assuming he/she doesn't try to cast a different spell?
The effect you describe is exactly what the Spell Store spell does so the answer is no you cannot pre-prepare a spell and then cast it at a later time without preparation.
Also, Spell Law says...
On the round of spell effect (i.e., when
it is actually “cast” or “thrown”) a spell caster
uses 75% activity, and so only has 25% left
(which means they may not cast another
spell). If a caster is downed, stunned, or
killed during preparation, or in the casting
round before their casting action takes
place, the spell is canceled but no power
points are expended.
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RMU (Rolemaster Unified) is the latest edition of Rolemaster. It is currently in the testing ('beta') phase. You can download it from these forums free of charge if you want to playtest it.
Just my opinion, but it is also fantastic. They really did a nice job taking the best of RM2 and RMSS, and creating a rule set that is consistent and easy-to-remember. Worth a read even if you stick with RM2; many of the rules can be back-ported as house rules.
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RMU (Rolemaster Unified) is the latest edition of Rolemaster. It is currently in the testing ('beta') phase. You can download it from these forums free of charge if you want to playtest it.
Just my opinion, but it is also fantastic. They really did a nice job taking the best of RM2 and RMSS, and creating a rule set that is consistent and easy-to-remember. Worth a read even if you stick with RM2; many of the rules can be back-ported as house rules.
I'm excited for it too. I think they've done a really great job with the spells (spells at every level on every list), with simplifying encumbrance and spellcasting, and with adding some great new mechanics (like individual armor pieces).
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At this point, the spell caster can also "hip shoot" a spell and cast it with slight penalty without full rounds of prep time.
"Slight"? According to RAW, the ESF for taking off two rounds of preparation is 50, meaning at least 50% of rolling on the spell failure table at +150, and even the ESF for taking off one round is 25, meaning 25% of rolling on the spell failure table at +75. Reading the spell failure table, even for a non-attack spell, there is a total of 37.5% in the first case for the caster to just put himself out of activity for hours, and a total of 23.75% in the second case of stunning himself and of 1.225% to put himself out of activity for hours. I don't call that "slight"…
I was referring to the Class II spells and they were skipping 1 round of prep, not two rounds. Very rarely, and in dire situations would they try to skip two rounds of prep.