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Gamer's Corner => General Discussion => Topic started by: Hurin on January 07, 2016, 05:36:04 PM
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So my gaming group is looking to start a game in Middle Earth, c. 1600 of the Third Age. I'd like to play a Paladin (Rolemaster), but I'm having a hard time fitting him into the lore. I was thinking of perhaps making him a knight of Dol Amroth. Has Dol Amroth ever been covered in the old MERP modules? Or is there any better background anyone can think of? What character in Tolkien's books comes closest to being a Paladin?
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There was Assassins of Dol Amroth, but I think that was just an adventure module. I tend to associate Paladins with religion, and I can't really thing of anything that religious, at least from the point of worshippers, in Middle-earth. Although maybe the LoTR appendices or The Silmarillion has something.
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I use the Ranger Profession as a template for skill development (assuming you're using MERP). You can select 4 paladin lists pretty easily and have them worship Orome the Huntsman via an Avatar Spirit (which is common in ME). If you are using MERP spell lists only then Detection Mastery, Surface Ways, Protections and Spell Defence could be the 4 Base Lists. Typically magic granted by the Valar cannot harm in anyway.
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Thanks for the help guys; unfortunately, I am still a bit stuck trying to fit a Paladin into the lore. I just found that Dol Amroth is covered in the Havens of Gondor module. Unfortunately, the knights of Dol Amroth are more secular knights.
I'm playing RM2 (eventually RMU) by the way.
Where would I find info on Avatar Spirits?
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It really doesn't look as if religion in Middle-earth extended beyond a temple of Eru in Numenor, and the worship of Morgoth. So a religious warrior is going to be a bit tricky - unless you want more of an anti-paladin.
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Yeah, that is the hard part.
By the way, are all the old ICE Middle Earth modules available for purchase as .pdf? Or did the end of the Tolkien license mean ICE can't sell that stuff anymore?
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No, they can't be legally acquired as pdfs.
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How do you handle channeling in general? Where do clerics and priests (if any) get their power? To some extent, a paladin is just a martially-oriented priest.
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I think that you can still say Channelers get their power from their god, as there are more than a dozen major gods and surely many minor ones in the Tolkien mythos. The problem (at least from my perspective) is that Tolkien seems to speak of religion rarely, and describe religious rituals/practices even more rarely. He seems rarely to mention things like churches and temples. So I'm not exactly sure how the gods were worshipped, other than the Elves singing songs in their honor.
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Yes, Tolkien appears to have deliberately not incorporated religion into Middle-earth. I found this post: http://askmiddlearth.tumblr.com/post/60858926029/why-no-institutionalized-religion-in-middle-earth with some quotes from him. According to this, Eru, in Tolkien's eyes, was the only real god, with the Valar being treated more like saints.
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Apparently, the White Tree has tremendous religious value. It's possible you could incorporate paladins into an order related to that tree.
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If religion isn't organized, then you could also have a paladin be a warrior who is "blessed" by a Vala, something which they have earned by upholding a set of ideals and carrying themself with humility. They might be part of an order, which would provide a set of ideals, but it might be something unique to the individual. Even if they are part of an order, the blessing could be unique to the individual and not something that everyone in the order receives. Structure and organized religion might make it easier to find the divine, but ultimately the power comes from the divine and not from a church. That seems consistent with what Tolkien was doing.
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Interesting suggestions! Thanks for them.
I'm thinking that I might see if my DM is cool with an order dedicated to opposing and hunting out the minions of Morgoth/Sauron. I am thinking of a group founded after the appearance of the Istari (Wizards), which believes/understands that the Wizards are sent from Valinor to help in this struggle, and that tries to aid the Wizards in any way they can. These would be kind of the shock troops of the White Council.
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The Valar as Saints is a good analogy. As per the core MERP book there are 2 ways to derive magic- drawing power directly from the song of creation (essence) or drawing from the Valar (channeling). I'd use a Jedi-esque approach and make them more like monks than classic paladins. Men seem pre-disposed to religion (and it was a tool used to corrupt them in the East). You could also have them draw power from an artifact (a simiril?) that has it's own will.
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... These would be kind of the shock troops of the White Council.
What about ones turned to follow Saruman? That might be cool, too.
To others,
I always viewed the Valar as being the Arch-Angels and Angels, with the ones turned by Morgoth being Devils and Demons.
rmfr
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That is also a good analogy. Eru is the one god in ME. The other Valar are greater servants who also lent their voices to the song of creation (hence why Morgoths perversions cannot be wholly undone) and the Maiar are basically their servants. Sauron was Maiar and a disciple of Aule before being corrupted by Morgoth if I recall. One thing that is unique about ME religion is that the Valar a& Maiar are basically forbidden from bending the peoples to their will. So, there is a lack of formal hierarchy in religion; it tends to be informal, and personal in nature, and only public in celebrations etc.
You also have to consider that there is a separation in the "civilization" of ME. From Erebor west is considered to be the homelands of the "enlightened" people; who know of the true nature of the Valar. The East (which is enormous) is considered un-enlightened and would likely have all sorts of cults and locale spirits active. Some would be instruments of Sauron, but many would be people naturally turning to worship based on their culture (weather, harvest, totems etc.)- these religions would actually be worshipping the Valar through locale spirits (Maiar). The Valar were tasked with the stewardship of ME and sent many Maiar as agents aside from the Istari.
All this to say- there is a lot of room for creative license without worrying about disturbing the core material of ME too much. The big thing is to observe that the Valar cannot grant power to destroy or create as those two aspects defy the song of creation. So, based on my recollection of the Paladin lists you'd probably be OK with most of them as augment the paladin them self. However, you'd likely be unable to use the attack spells on anything born of the song of creation (men, elves, animals, etc) but only on things corrupted by Morgoth or his servants (Orcs, Wargs, etc).
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But we do know of at least one Valar (Morgoth) and several Maiar (Sauron, Saruman, the balrogs) who did bend people to their will, as well as both create and destroy. I guess by 'forbidden' you mean more in a legal sense?
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Exactly- Eru forbids it and all of those mentioned are "evil". I took a look at my own material and found that I use Rangers as "paladins" for Orome the Hunter. No brainer there. But, Tulkas is the Champion of the Valar, and I used the Monk with a slightly altered DP array. Spell Lists were the Monk lists. Really, the word Paladin implies the knightly warrior- so if that is what you are after, I would check in to the Noble Warrior from RM2. They would fit nicely in to Dol Amroth or Minas Tirith.
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I loved the Noble Warrior class from RM2, but we're going to be playing RMU (hopefully it is released in time-- this won't be for a while yet), so I'm not sure that class will be available. I actually hope to draw up a homebrew Noble Warrior for RMU when it is published though, so maybe I'll try that.
I did think of the knights of Dol Amroth too, but they really seem to be more secular knights.
I want to actually play a Paladin class, though, because I really like the RMU Paladin spells. I think I'll run the idea past my GM of an order of knights dedicated to aiding the Istari and fighting the minions of Sauron. That pretty much covers the demons and undead part of the Paladin, and gives the class a link to the gods (via the Istari).
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If you have access to the Lords of Middle Earth Volume I it references a Dunedain religion and gives a quick over-view. It also has a blurb on how the Valar are mistaken as gods and Eru as the one god etc.
I can't recall the Paladin lists from RMU off hand. But, if they are similar to the RMSS set than I would allow them as a GM.
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If you have access to the Lords of Middle Earth Volume I it references a Dunedain religion and gives a quick over-view. It also has a blurb on how the Valar are mistaken as gods and Eru as the one god etc.
That is extremely helpful! Thanks very much for that reference.
I can't recall the Paladin lists from RMU off hand. But, if they are similar to the RMSS set than I would allow them as a GM.
They are pretty similar, I think.
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No problem. I am running a ME game, and have been for just over 3 years. Although I periodically switch systems I always use the core MERP material as the base for conversions etc. So, I have run into the Paladin puzzle before.
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I've never let game rules get in the way of character playing. In our Middle Earth-based campaign I have one Paladin character... though you wouldn't recognize him as such. He is a gruff, mercenary-minded redneck field surgeon - I needed the Paladin spell lists for that. One particular list, actually. His magic skills, if you even want to call them that, don't really extend beyond that one list, but it has saved lives in the past.
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The setting is always open for interpretation. I play in the 4th age. So, I am pretty liberal with my interpretations too.
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I think that you can still say Channelers get their power from their god, as there are more than a dozen major gods and surely many minor ones in the Tolkien mythos. The problem (at least from my perspective) is that Tolkien seems to speak of religion rarely, and describe religious rituals/practices even more rarely. He seems rarely to mention things like churches and temples. So I'm not exactly sure how the gods were worshipped, other than the Elves singing songs in their honor.
There have been other replies that already refer to some crucial topics in this context. A very important one is to decide on how "canonical" you want your game to be, i.e. do you stick very closely to what Tolkien has written about his cosmology (and not only in the LotR but also the numerous additional works; especially the HoMe series) or do you follow it more loosely, allowing considerable leeway (and thus use the background more as a rough guideline)?
In the first case, Paladins - and Chaneling magic as defined by RM (and MERP!) - would not be existent for anyone aligned with the Valar. In a nutshell, the Valar are "only" the guardians of Arda and are theologically more like saints or angels rather than gods themselves. The most central and important commandment laid upon them by Eru is that they shall make Arda habitable for Erus Children (Elves, Men and Dwarves) but not interfere with them in a way such as influencing their decisions and freedom by a display of their - clearly - superior power and majesty. Naturally, such a commandment includes not to "lend" them any power they do not possess innately. Since "Channeling" is defined as exactly this - lending power of a god to his worshippers/devotees to work "magic", it is only possible for the "evil" guys who do not care about Eru's commandments. And even then, this would sap at their own innate power and strength if done by a lot of people over extended periods of time. Melkor/Morgoth might be prone to this (as he gave most of his power into his creations like orcs, trolls and dragons anyway), but Sauron who was more wiser kept his innate power more to himself rather than disperse it.
This partially answers also your other question: Tolkien refers not to temples, priests and churches among his "good" people since they have nothing of this sort! He discusses this in context with the Númenóreans/Dúnedain (synonymous terms): In Númenor, the king was the only priest, as only he was allowed to make the spiritual contact with Eru. And this open "service" was done only on the holy days upon the peak of the Meneltarma. Beyond this, the Númenóreans had nothing like any organized church, clergy etc.
The first (and only) time a temple was built in Númenor was when Sauron seduced them to Morgoth-worship (with Sauron as High-Priest) which ultimately led to disaster.
Tolkien's deep catholic faith prevented him from creating any religion contradicting his devout christian belief even in an imagined world. In a way, he devised it as "mythologic" past of our own world when Christ has not appeared yet and all the "good" people in this story have to live without the promise of salvation he has taught.
But OTOH, if you do not plan to stick this closely to Tolkien's cosmological ideas, there have been some quite useful ideas in this thread already :)
Cheers
Tolwen
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Ditto. LOL.
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Great stuff! Thanks folks.
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You could also have him worshipping an order which he thinks is good....but is really a mechanism of Morgoth or Sauron. That might be fun.
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Paladins, a construct from other game systems, doesn't really fit into ME. A non-spell or minor spell using paladin might fit. Maybe some sort of soldier that is loyal and devoted to some cause, maybe even some religious figure, though I doubt any miraculous spells would work. Too much magic turns it into the MERP version of ME, rather than the Tolkien version. Maybe they would have some artifact such as a horn that spurns on fighting, a symbolic shield, or a sword that glows or something. Maybe prayer of comfort.
But MERP only had warrior, scout, animist, ranger, mage, & bard for professions in the core books and modules. But like RM, warriors could learn open spells at a higher cost, if I'm not mistaken. They could pick one realm and max cast up to level 3 open spell lists.
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Paladins, a construct from other game systems, doesn't really fit into ME. A non-spell or minor spell using paladin might fit. Maybe some sort of soldier that is loyal and devoted to some cause, maybe even some religious figure, though I doubt any miraculous spells would work. Too much magic turns it into the MERP version of ME, rather than the Tolkien version. Maybe they would have some artifact such as a horn that spurns on fighting, a symbolic shield, or a sword that glows or something. Maybe prayer of comfort.
But MERP only had warrior, scout, animist, ranger, mage, & bard for professions in the core books and modules. But like RM, warriors could learn open spells at a higher cost, if I'm not mistaken. They could pick one realm and max cast up to level 3 open spell lists.
For MERP, it was meant to be "Lite" so it wouldn't have much in the way of expanded professions.
But I could easily See Elendil and Isildur as having been Paladins. Maybe Not the type of Paladin as we see normally think of them, Championing a and enforcing a specific Religion. But More as a Holy Avenger type that seeks to destroy the forces of Evil, in this case,specifically the forces of Mordor.
Spreading a "religion" or the tenets of a specific diety was not their purpose... But Defending the people against the powers of Sauron, yes.
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But I could easily See Elendil and Isildur as having been Paladins. Maybe Not the type of Paladin as we see normally think of them, Championing a and enforcing a specific Religion. But More as a Holy Avenger type that seeks to destroy the forces of Evil, in this case,specifically the forces of Mordor.
Spreading a "religion" or the tenets of a specific diety was not their purpose... But Defending the people against the powers of Sauron, yes.
For Elendil, I could imagine this as well, as he is described (from what little that we know of him) to be a character we normally associate with paladins like little pride and a sense for thinking for the common good.
Isildur's description (again from what we have from Tolkien) is quite different. Without doubt he is a central and pivotal figure for the history of Middle-earth and the defeat of Sauron at the end of the Second Age. His character is quite different from his father though. He is described as being of considerable pride, used to command, expecting others to obey him and generally getting things done his way. That way, he is a multi-faceted character with great depth, but probably not what we normally associate with a "good" and "paladin-like" and "holy" champion/avenger.
Cheers
Tolwen
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"He is described as being of considerable pride, used to command, expecting others to obey him and generally getting things done his way."
That doesn't sound in any way inconsistent with being a paladin. Humility is one path, but paladins are well suited for leadership roles. I think the question is how they take advantage of getting their way.
Of course in RM, paladins don't necessarily have a lawful good outlook, so being consistent and unshakeable in one's personal conduct is perhaps more important than what that conduct actually happens to be. It should be compatible with the source of the power they are channeling, but plenty of dieties are prideful and would expect the same of their servants. Here, where the power might be coming from a cause and not a diety per se, there's more room for variation in personality, as long as that cause is always foremost.
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Also, just because they are "supposed" to be Good, doesn't mean a Paladin isn't still Human. Victim of the frailties of the Human condition.
Pride and Self Righteousness are not Incompatible with a Paladin. They don't make the Best Paladin, but no paladin is perfect. They just Think they are perfect.
I also think of Paladins as having the mind set that they know better than everyone else, they Know what is Best for the whole.
And this is not an inconsistent attitude for even a rigid Alignment system Like AD&D.
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Hi fellows,
I think in the successor kingdoms of Arnor there was organized religion that you can fit in a medieval type of game.
Malbeth the Seer, mid Third Age, had the power to name the new born royal heir and gave such wise instructions on foreign policy that he was still remembered by Elrond in the late TA. I think the Seers were the priests of Greece, some based on the Oracle of Delphi. The divinatory skill that Malbeth showed is a clerical attribute. He might have had access to the Palantíri but it said that these stones were best attuned to the descendants of the kings.
'It is said that this name was given to him at his birth by Malbeth the Seer, who said to his father: "Arvedui you shall call him, for he will be the last in Arthedain. Though a choice will come to the Dúnedain, and if they take the one that seems less hopeful, then your son will change his name and become king of a great realm. If not, then much sorrow and many lives of men shall pass, until the Dúnedain arise and are united again." (The Return of the King, Appendices) Here it seems like the Seer hierarchy had a large control on the king like in the Middle Ages.
As Elrond said, ‘Bid Aragorn remember the words of the seer, and the Paths of the Dead.'
Regards,
DW
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Indeed. I, too, have always considered "canonical" Middle Earth to allow for a Rolemaster channeling analogue through the blessed powers of Dúnadan nobility. The Seer(s) are one aspect. Others are The Hands of the King being the Hands of a Healer, the ability to make use of the supernatural powers of Athelas or the Palantíri, the power to accept an Oath that ends up dooming an entire people to fade into the half-life of an undead army, the ability to create magic walking sticks such as Faramir gives to Sam and Frodo. And that's near the end of the Third Age, where supernatural powers are largely withdrawn from Middle Earth.
Other examples from earlier times are the magic potions that Numenorean kings were said to have been making, or the Healing Potion mentioned to be available to the regular line soldiers in the Gladden Fields desaster. Or the designated Nazgûl-killing short swords recovered from the barrow that were reportedly made by the Dúnedain.
Other outright magic wielded by humans includes whatever the Nazgûl did when they were "sorcerors" of old, whatever the Mouth of Sauron did to unnaturally extend his life, and the Morgul blades. And that's just off the top of my head. I once did a list of all instances of magic being used or encountered either directly or through an item in LoTR, the Hobbit and parts of the Silmarillion and HoME.
Much as I do respect Chris Seeman, I disagree with his opinion in his essay on "Magic in Middle Earth". The evidence I found doesn't turn Middle Earth into a classic D&D or Rolemaster setting but somehow a lot of human beings seem to have surmounted the impossibility of using magic.
I've yet to develop a theory how this fits with Tolkien's cosmology (if I had I'd have submitted it to Other Minds or somesuch long ago). But the Rolemaster idea of channeling magic isn't too far off from how I feel this should work - an agent of "good" is ultimately only a conduit for a supernatural power deriving from Eru directly, or through a Vala or even Maia.
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One idea that persists in ME magic is that the closer a Language is to the Song of Creation the more magical it is. The idea that each profession learns a magical language that allows them to manipulate aspects of the song is not far fetched- it can be interpreted that each races language also gives them access to certain "spells". Gandalf at the gates of Moria had a little "all the of all the tongues" type dialogue. Saruman was a master of words of power; which can be viewed as words that were so close to the song of creation that they called forth it's power. All this to say, that perhaps the religious aspect is to temper your mind and soul and make sure that you are worthy of and ready to learn the new words of power. You are channelling power from the song, not through a deity, but by using the discipline taught by the personification of an ideal.