Topic: HARM...?

[Fidoric]

One of many things I like in RMSS is exhaustion. It has disappeared in Harp leaving no easy may to determine how long someone can run, fight... The basic 40+3*CO works directly with Harp and need not be modified. I use it like that.

[Mungo]

You are the first person I know who uses Exhaustion at all...

[Mungo]

The way you phrased your comments before, it sounded like you were saying that there was a problem with the rules themselves, not with your comfort level in using them.  Two very different things. 

I know this is becoming philosophical now, but actually I believe in most cases those 2 are the same.

The only case that comes into my mind to consider a rule "bad" or "problematic" is when it is inconsistent with the other rules in the gaming system. Otherwise it is always fine from a pure mathematical and system design point of view.

But whether this rule is good in real life is then decided by the users / customers, based on their personal preferences. Or in other words: rules have effects and users have goals, and only if the effects of the rules are in line with the customer's goals the rules are considered "good".

But only if they are considered "good" they will be adopted, which strengthen's the vendor's market position which is the vendor's goal (I assume).

So my bottomline: whether a rule is problematic or not is, at least with a solid and very good system like RM or HARP, always a question of whether people like it emotionally or not.

BR
Juergen

[MidKnight]

HARP- the way spells are handled; separation of cultures and races; the way skills are handled; and the way talents and skills are bought.

RM- the AT's (more specifically, armor does not increase DB directly), the more varied crit tables, weapon adjustments due to armor used against( basically the entire combat system- I like the RM tables where there is Hit damage and sometimes a critical...), potential stats.

... anyone else?

This matches my own personal preferences to a 'T'.  I love the seperation of Races & Cultural upbringings in HARP.  I love the concept of 'Armor by the Piece' and 'Hit Locations', but I also love the RM 'built-in' aspect of weapons performing better against certain armor types (which can be handled with additional modifiers, but slows the resolution slightly), and having different critical tables.

All in all I love the character generation system and magic system of HARP, but prefer the individual weapon tables and critical tables of RM.

[Alwyn]

RWW,

I have been using the HB 11 combat system, but I use the RM2 crit tables.  This seems to have worked out, and gives our group the best of both worlds.

[jurasketu]

Re: Mungo Post #21

You know. Over the years, my various gaming groups tried about a dozen different exhaustion systems. Some invented by us, some invented by others. And it just NEVER seemed to matter. Unless a fight lasts a REALLY long time, you didn't get that exhausted. In reality, heroes are highly trained athletes capable of impressive feats of endurance. If you look at the historical record, battles lasted as long as two hours. While fighting is most definitely exhausting, adrenaline and conditioning will keep you going long enough for any RPG combat.

Essentially, it was a lot of book keeping for nothing. Worse, the injuries pile up LONG before exhaustion kicks in. But then in a long fight, a few healing spells would get thrown - and I think that kind of "helps" exhaustion anyway. Often, the players and/or the GM would decide using "common sense" that they were "tired" and would roleplay accordingly.

Power points, of course, represent a form of exhaustion - magical related. Once we even experimented with an exhaustion system that conflated regular exhaustion and magical exhaustion. It was just annoying instead of fun. And if rules don't produce "fun" - I'm ag'in 'em.

Robin

[Right Wing Wacko]

RWW,

I have been using the HB 11 combat system, but I use the RM2 crit tables.  This seems to have worked out, and gives our group the best of both worlds.

Could one simply replace HARP combat and armor rules with RM2 Combat sysem? There use to be a book... Arms Law? Is that still available, and, more importantly, can it be used with little tinkering? Is there any Hits discrepencies due to system difference? But it sounds like it is working fine for you. I am still on the fence... I might have to purchase a complete set of RM rules once I get the lewts!

Oh yeah... I have never used exhaustion either. Too much unnecessary bookeeping for no gain. Doesn't the minuses to OB due to % of hits taken and minuses to spellcasting due to % of PP used kinda represent exhaustion anyway? Thats how I play it.

[tuanamar]

I hated the way RM treated armor. AT#s are crap, even worse in Space Master.

I use the tables from Hack and Slash, translate the A-Z letters in A-E crits and use the RM crit tables, with a second roll - works really fine so far. Its maybe not so fast as intended (more tables, two rolls), but crits are the spice on the flesh and blood of the players.

Next thing we like to change somehow is the initiative system of HARP - RM is not better, but the Runequest one is really nice and both RM as Runequest are based on a 10s system. 2s is often a problem for us, because some actions takes minutes and e.g. 6 rounds waiting is better than 30 rounds (which can be in real gaming time hours...).

It would be nice to have a fast way to translate RM spells/spell lists into HARP, because I prefer the HARP system.

[Fidoric]

I agree that exhaustion is rarely relevant during a RM style fight. And I have never kept track of it. Exhaustion only comes in handy when used to simulate chasing actions and the like. Only there I find it useful to track ExP expenditure and the associated penalties.
Most characters are certainly in fighting trim and able to take part in a 2-hour-long battle but such events are not 2 hours of fight, there is always time to recover breath between two fights. Even world class boxers do not fight effecively for more than some minutes. It's right that RM fights rarely go beyond some minutes too.
But if you enter a fight after sprinting for 5 minutes trying to escape your foes, you will be definitively hindered. You then have the possibility to give some 'random' penalties, but in that case, ExP and associated maluses are IMO useful. To relate this with other threads, you find here a reason why not to always wear AT20.
Besides, RM exhaustion system is usable as is in HARP.

[jurasketu]

Re: #28

Fidoric-

Yeah. You're right. We never thought to only apply it to chases - which makes perfect sense - I'll have to make a note of that. As I said, we just "roleplay" exhaustion.

BTW our groups almost never troop around in heavy armor - a drowning here or there, swampy conditions there, a run for your life scenario here, a MUST climb up steep rock or tree there... And pretty soon - we stopped wearing anything beyond leather if that... Then again, we haven't done a dungeon crawl (nothing against them) in ages... We DO enforce encumbrance/movement penalties big time. And we like to ride horses all the time... Heavy armor. Such a nuisance...

Robin

[Umpteenth]

I have to agree with the others, as a former MERP player/GM i do miss the Armor Types. (no DB gained from armor)

In our campain we just tested every harp combat system, before mix some of then in our own house-ruled.

We use all HARP Character's creation and development, including spells.

We use HB11-12 for the "To Hit Matrixes" but we use HB 1st Ed. Critical Tables, mostly because it has no location in the criticals with allows us both randomize it (using 2 dices added as in H&S) or perform called shots. Some other critical tables that were missing in the first edition such as Holy or Magical were addapted from HB11-12.

We also use old MERP fumbles tables, and battlemaster to give us an "hexagonal" battle overview.